[Avodah] ee itmar hachi itmar

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 07:50:41PM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: I am now learning a sugya in shabbat (44) and twice in a row the
: gemara quotes an amora
: and then says it is impossible because of a beraita and then rephrases
: the amora
: "ee itmar hachi itmar"
: literally if he indeed said something this is what he said
: 
: To me it sounds like their was a mesorah which turned out to be wrong.

That's my understanding. That they didn't take it for granted that
maamarim reached Bavel intact, and if something didn't make sense,
it was considered indication that perhaps it was repeated incorrectly.

I pay attention to the issue as I'm learning Y-mi. There was not one
instance (that I noticed) in Berakhos or Demai of a question being
answered by redefining the quoted maamar -- whether beraisa, tosefta,
or even the retelling of a maaseh rav. The Y-mi would tend to just leave
the question open, and move on to another topic. No "teiqu" or the like
to tell you the sugya is over -- just ending the sugya with a question.

I saw a few cases in Kelayim. In general, I saw more Bavli-like style
in Kelayim in other ways too, like a couple of times "mai ta'ama" was
answered with a sevara, rather than the Y-mi norm of taking it as a
request for a pasuq. But even those cases in Kelayim where they
change the context of a pesaq from the one it was originally repeated
with, I was able to find ways to explain it as something less than
a full reinterpretation -- it's not so clearcut.

But in any case, there is pretty solid agreement about the basic rules
of thumb / tendencies:

The Y-mi is built upon quotes, stories of past practice and word of
mouth. The Bavli had less confidence in their word of mouth (both mimetic
and codified law, oral textualism), and so relied more on logic.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
micha at aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter