[Avodah] Geirut for marriage

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 04:34:05PM -0000, Chana wrote:
: RMB writes:
...
: > A convert who isn't meqabel ol mitzvos isn't a ger. But we're not
: > psychic, so we have to rely on watching behavior, listening to what the
: > person says, and relying on chazaqos that the qabbalah is real.

: > When the person has an alternate motive, it becomes far more difficult
: > to rely on the chazaqah. And so, as the Rambam writes (Issurei Bi'ah
: > 13:14):...

: The reason why I am surprised is that you still appear to be poskening from
: the Ramban when:

: a) from Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah siman 268 Si'if 3 it appears very clear
: that he poskens like Tosphos and the Rosh and not the Rambam; and

Except that I still don't find it clear. He writes, "chutz miqabalas
hamitzvos sheme'aqeves..." which although is the language of the Tosafos
and the Rosh WRT requiring a beis din (3 kesheirim meeting during the
day) does not prove he holds like them WRT sefeiqos in the qabalah due
to the person having ulteriar motives. And the Rambam is more machmir,
requiring the other steps to also require BD, not that qabbalas ol mitzvos
before a BD is less mandatory.

: b) the Bach (Yoreh Deah 268, s. v. vechal inyanav, end) understands this
: particular Rambam (it is 13:17 btw) as meaning that the Rambam holds that a
: conversion is valid even if "no kabalat mitzvot took place at all." (the
: language is "d'kasher af al pi she lo l'shem kabbalat mitzvoth kol ikar"),
: this being in macholus to Tosphos and the Rosh.

: Ie at least the Bach understands the Rambam to have these chashashos because
: of his understanding that no formal kabala need be made..

I do not see that as the SA's take. He says that QOM needs a BD, and
that according to the Rif and the Rambam the other two steps also require
a BD.

Thus, the SA understands all three rishonim as needing QOM before a BD --
even bedi'eved. The question here is what to do when there is a rei'usa
(maybe they are fooling us or themselves for their ulterior motive)
to the chazaqa we rely upon in place of psychically knowing that the
QOM that was before that BD was real.


IOW, both of us left that previous conversation believing that our point
was made.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
micha at aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
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