[Avodah] Geirut for marriage

[Chana]

RMB writes:

> I understood it on very different terms.
> 
> But we debated this in
> http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=G#GEIRUT

We did indeed, which is why I am surprised that you are still saying:

> A convert who isn't meqabel ol mitzvos isn't a ger. But we're not
> psychic, so we have to rely on watching behavior, listening to what the
> person says, and relying on chazaqos that the qabbalah is real.
> 
> When the person has an alternate motive, it becomes far more difficult
> to rely on the chazaqah. And so, as the Rambam writes (Issurei Bi'ah
> 13:14):
>     ... ve'afilu noda shbishvil davar hu misgayeir
>     ho'il unal vetaval
>     yatza mikelal goyim
>     vechosheshin lo
>     ad sheyiba'eir tzidquso.

The reason why I am surprised is that you still appear to be poskening from
the Ramban when:

a) from Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah siman 268 Si'if 3 it appears very clear
that he poskens like Tosphos and the Rosh and not the Rambam; and

b) the Bach (Yoreh Deah 268, s. v. vechal inyanav, end) understands this
particular Rambam (it is 13:17 btw) as meaning that the Rambam holds that a
conversion is valid even if "no kabalat mitzvot took place at all." (the
language is "d'kasher af al pi she lo l'shem kabbalat mitzvoth kol ikar"),
this being in macholus to Tosphos and the Rosh.

Ie at least the Bach understands the Rambam to have these chashashos because
of his understanding that no formal kabala need be made.  So you are arguing
with the Bach if you insist that this chashash would come up anywhere else
(ie when indeed a kabala was made before a beis din of three), and since the
Shulchan Aruch poskens like tosphos, l'chatchila one would, to follow the
Shulchan Aruch, need a formal kabala before a beis din of three.

It would seem to be only *if* you had no kabala before beis din, then
(maybe) you might have chashashos based on this Rambam that maybe the person
was a ger anyway - but only if you hold that when the Shulchan Aruch poskens
like Tosphos and the Rosh, he is only doing so l'chatchila, and not bideved.

> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha

Shabbat Shalom

Chana