[Avodah] Kosher

[rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com]

Micha:
> I find the words "lechatkhilah" and "bedi'eved" (or bedi'avad) here to
> be confusing.»

Same as a dispute last year about dairy bread.

Given one is NOT permitted to bake dairy bread w/o making the bread
self-evidently dairy.

OK, now you are a consumer of "Arnold's" dairy bread.
May you buy it lechatchila or not?

Does the labeling outside bed'avad constitute making up for the lack of
an intrinsic shape?
Some agencies used to certify this very kind of bread. Most now do not.
When I teach SA I point out that on the "timeline" there may be several
instances of lechatchila

In this case
    + Keilim cleaning time
    + Food prep time
    + Purchasing time etc.

AFAIK, an agency would NOT give hashgacha on a bittul done by a non-Jew
under its certification - because it would be deemed mevatlin issur
lechatchilah. This is AIUI the position against animal gelatin.

OTOH, once batteil outside the auspices of a hashgachah, the food may
be halachically kosher

Another illustration:

May a Deli sell chikcen livers broiled after 3 days following shechita?

Agency 1 yes we are not choshesh that those broiled livers will be cooked
by the purchaser later on

Agency 2
We allow ZERO chicken livers unless we can guarantee that all livers are
processed within the 3 day time frame lest a baal-ha-bayyis subsequently
cook it.

Frankly, agency 1 is too lenient - they fail to label that this liver
product may only be broiled and never cooked

Frankly Agency 2 is being machmir too much because most pasqen that if
the baal habbayyis did cook it, it doesn't treif up anything since it's
only a Gaonic Humra anyway.

So if I were agency 1.5 I would allow it and carefully label the warning,
"BEWARE liver may have been broiled after 3 days"

In the. Chicken liver case we have many points on the timeline
    + Before 3 days
    + After 3 days before broiling
    + Broiled after 3 days before purchasing
    + Purchased but not yet cooked
    + Already cooked liver that was broiled after 3 days.

Here's another case of policy
Only cooking it raw requires the mashgiach to light the fire.
For Re-heated he need not light.
BUT kosher agencies usually keep the matches and lighters out of the hands
of non-Jewish cooks accross the board - though not strictly reuquired -
it's simple common sense to do so!

And AIUI we can rely on eino ben yomo and other kullos to buy coffee
from an uncertified starbucks or duncan donuts

BUT
Once under hashgacha that's not permitted lechatchila.

Which was my original post.

I still have not mastered the entire corpus of Kashrus by any means,
but I can see from experience how the SA in issur v'heter is implemented
in practice for the main cases.

I'll give another case

Certifier 3 says 
"Do not use fresh brocolli florets at all -only frozen with a hashgacha"

I called up an official there and he said "except for our professional
mashgicihim who MAY be trusted". IOW the strict policy is for baalebatim
The more lenient policy is for commercial hashgacha which assumes rinsing
soaping, rinsing and inspecting, etc. An onerous task for an amateur.

I told my wife, no more fresh broccoli @ home and I won't eat the florets
at other baalei-batim whom I otherwise trust.

@@@@@@@@@@@@

Subbing at a now defunct restaurant they were serving strawberries WHOLE

I told the owner -
"the OU has recently emailed the community against strawberries whose
stems have not been removed! This is mar'is ho'ayin of the highest order
no matter how much we succesfully clean them! People will NOW expect the
stems to be cut-off and we must comply lest we are seen as non-compliant."

So a lot goes into hashgacha above what is permitted for a "ba'al
habbayyis."

A ba'al habbayyis is like laining the Haftara from a printed sefer

A hashgacha is like laining from a klaf, a lot of prep goes on behind
the sceenes, even if the output sounds alike.

KT
RRW
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