[Avodah] mei marom

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 12:50:08PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: Again, where do you see, anywhere in the story, *any* indication that
: the Roman did teshuvah?

So, you're arguing that someone went from killing people for being Jews
(albeit "just following orders") to believing there is an olam haba
worth dying for, but that's not teshuvah. It never crossed my mind that
position was defensible.

...
: >It requires the centurion listening to the dialog between RCbT and his
: >talmidim, and seeing that as a martyr's victorious death. The reaction
: >is secondary, and is AFTER the centurion's decision. As long as anyone
: >calls it qoneh olamo, the result is the same.

: Read it again.  The entire pshetel is not about the Roman's decision
: but about RChbT's supposed reaction.

I did, and have no idea what you're talking about. The vort discusses

: >Who said din is about what one does. As we read last week and will
: >again next Rosh haShanah, din is about ba'asher hu sham. Which
: >teshuvah changes.

: Baasher hu sham is about Yishmael's life being worth saving; he had
: not yet done any averos, so why shouldn't he be saved?  But here
: we're talking about reward, and what reward had Yishmael or REbD
: earned? ...

He didn't do any aveiros yet? Then why did he get kicked out of Avraham's
house?

Besides, there is no mention of actions in "baasher hu sham", just
state.

Moreover, if you look at how the Ran, the Ikkarim, R' Chaim Volozhiner,
for that matter Yirmiyahu haNavi, discuss onesh, one finds it's inherent
in the person. I wrote a sizable amount to prove this point. See
http://aishdas.org/10YemeiTeshuvah.pdf, the first few chapters.

The whole concept of dividing the two notions of zekhus -- merit and
reward -- simply doesn't work either by how reward is historically
defined nor by notions of justice.

...
: >Which is not just. You have someone who theoretically is capable of
: >getting hanaah from ziv haShechinah without actuall developing that
: >capability within himself. No preparing in the prozdor, but enjoying the
: >banquet anyway?
: 
: His ticket was paid for, by someone who did more than enough avodah
: to get two people in.  Yes, it seems unfair; if it didn't Rebbi
: wouldn't have cried.  But that's an emotional reaction; it doesn't
: mean there's no din or dayan, ch"v...

Simply because olam haba isn't fungible.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The waste of time is the most extravagant
micha at aishdas.org        of all expense.
http://www.aishdas.org                           -Theophrastus
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