[Avodah] lulav on shabbat

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 12:16:58PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Micha asks
:> When was "lo ad"u Rosh" instituted? Is it possible that the calendar
:> was being modified during the third generation of amora'im?

: It is obvious that it wasn't done at the same time. In fact from the
: sugya it is clear
: that not having Rosh Hashana on wednesday so Hoshana Rabbah wouldn't
: be on shabbat is a much later gezerah

I tried dating Bar Hedya, Ravin and R' Hillel in order to put things in
a time fram. The former two were only a couple of decades before the end
of R' Hillel's Sanhedrin.

I took it as a given that our calendar is R' Hillel's barring some
machloqesin about how to apply R' Hilel's rules -- such as that of R'
Saadia Gaon vs chakhmei EY. Which to my mind meant the rule about "lo
...d... rosh" can't be a "much later gezeirah", and was quite possibly
the subject of debate in their day.

: Reminds me of additional question. Why were Chazal so worried about
: missing hoshanot
: and they weren't concerned about losing shofar when RH fell on shabbat
: especially in
: eras where there was only 1 day RH and similarly for lulav.
: The answer that occurs to me is that to avoid RH on shabbat it would
: require that
: RH cant fall out on a friday, shabbat or sunday which is demanding too much,
: ie if it should fall out on friday it would require a 3 day change

And/or it's one of those cases where Chazal were more worried about
people saying "eh, it's only a drabbanan" -- or in this case, "... a
minhag" -- and were more machmir on a deOraisa.

Or perhaps shofar represents qabbalas ol malkhus Shamayim in a way
that bowing for Shabbos is more mitabeir -- it's also unquestioning
qabalah. Whereas resting for Shabbos does not teach the same lesson
as hoshanos.

:> Ravin wasn't arguing with Bar Hedya, he was giving a later snapshot
:> of the changing of the rules then in progress.

: However, its going in the wrong direction. Bar Hedya says Hoshana Rabbah does
: not fall on shabbat while the later Ravin says it does.

: I dont have dates but the sugya reads that Bar Hedya first gave
: evidence but then came Ravin and
: al those who accompanied him
: Since today it cant fall come on shabbat it would be several flip-flops from
: yes to no to yes to no

Debates are like that, no?

You also assume the sequence in the gemara is historical sequence of when
they showed up, and not the sequence in which the contemporaries of R'
Ashi, Ravina or the savora'im testified.

Besach hakol, I would say you weakened my suggestion significantly, but
haven't ruled it out.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
micha at aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter