[Avodah] LBD lists

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 08:31:38PM -0500, Samuel Svarc wrote:
: This was already discussed. I pointed out that some people would not
: like to risk adjuticating correctly machlokesin between gedolie
: achronim, especially when this entails "compound heterim"...

Except that I have yet to have someone show me who says lehachmir,
where are these machleqsei acharonim that we're avoiding compoinding
qulos.

Take my opening question... Eating something that was mevetail by a
nachri, if he isn't doing it for a Jew or a primarily Jewish market,
is mutar lekhat-chilah lekhos hadei'os. What qulah would someone who use
"lists" rather than hechsheirim be relying on?

: the logic of 'sfeik sfeika' but in reverse; if one needs to be correct
: in this AND that AND that, or else the food isn't kosher to eat, many
: people will take a pass.

But we do say this when it comes to rov plus rov. Mi'ut bemaqom safeiq
lo amrinan.

As I wrote beforee:
: > It appears to often mean that the "mutar lekhat-chilah" result was not
: > self-evident without discussion. But that discussion doesn't make it
: > assur.
...
: > What dei'os yachid? You're confusing a question with a universally
: > accepted pesaq lehatir that we now avoid even asking with that pesaq
: > being a da'as yachid.
: 
: In America none of the major kashrus organisations hold by this pesak.

What I'm asking about is the origins of another pesaq. The tannaim reach
a pesaq about bitul and no one until the hechsheirim open it up again.
So what is the other pesaq to hold by?

I mean that as a question, not a challenge.

To put it another way, what is it the OU knows that Dayan Grunfeld
(to pick a noted name who was associated with the LBD in his lifetime)
didn't hold by? Why this quick assumption that the alternative is so
horrible if entire communtiies see little reason to switch over?

The bigger push in Europe toward hekhsheirim is over the ease of
finding a symbol on the box, not because the rabbanim have a problem
with keeping lists.

On the neemanus question:

Recall how many chassidishe maiselakh involve eating eggs in unknown
inns. And at one time, we pasqened that beer is by default kosher,
barring certain types of dark ales (which may contain red wine stam
yeinam) and flavored beers that require supervision. French Jews have a
centuries-old pesaq allowing traditional bagettes baked in traditional
bakeries. (RAF: not factories, correct?) The star-K told me and since
put on the web site the same about relying on Japanes and Chinese tea
makers not being willing to tamper with traditional recipes when making
their traditional forms of tea.

Where is the line?

I want people to actually discuss shitos. Not just say the
OU/khaf-K/etc.. doesn't rely on some <hand-waving> qulos -- which qulos?

Truth is, RRW may have answered my question off list. The mass production
industry has shown us lemaaseh that many of the assumptions chazal made
in a world of only mom-n-pop shops don't actually happen when the nakhri
is working for a corporation. Maybe it's that people are more likely
to buy the more expensive treif ingredient when it doesn't impact their
own paycheck.

Still, if we are making a distinction based on umdenah, can someone
point to a shu"t where it's spelled out?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
micha at aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fullfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH