[Avodah] Yom Tov Sheni for Olim LeReget to the Beit Mikdash

[Zev Sero]

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:59:10AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> : They couldn't accept eidim if none showed up.  The fact that in all
> : that time lo matzinu Elul me'ubar is surely a miracle; but not one
> : they could ever count on happening.   "Lo ADU Rosh" was not only
> : unheard of bizman habayis, it was equally unheard of when Rebbi
> : composed the mishneh; it's a much later development, long after
> : there was no more aliyah laregel.

> My point is just that if we see they did manipulate the months, and
> Rabban Gamliel insisted on a particular date for Yom Kippur

No, he didn't.  Where do you get the idea that he had any preference
for one date over another?  He was mekadesh the month according to
the eidim that came before him, because he believed they were telling
the truth.  R Yehoshua thought they were blatantly lying, and he
should have rejected them and made a 30-day Elul.  What has any of
this to do with manipulation?


> how do we
> know how fluid or fixed the decision of Rosh Chodesh was? We already
> ruled out al pi re'iyah as proof that it was ad hoc. So, could it have
> been algorithmically determined that far back? What's the proof it
> wasn't?

Because it would have been *impossible* to assure a 29-day month.
If eidim don't show up they don't show up.  If the sky was cloudy
then any eidim that do show up are liars.  All you can do is make
sure that Av has 30 days (and if you really want to put a thumb on
the scales you can force Tamuz to have 30 days as well), and hope.

 
> Everyone else's calendar was formulaic, not just the local nachriim,
> but the Tzeduqim and Qumronim as well. The Tzeduqim trying to force
> their algorithm is what they sent false eidim about, no?

Was it?  I've never heard that, or any other suggestion as to their
motive, beyond simple wickedness.  Is it your own idea?  Where do we
see that the Tzedukim had a formula?

 

> Notice I'm ascerting we do not know when al pi re'iyah became pro forma.
> Not that it happened at some time. My position isn't provable, because I
> think there is no provable position. If, however, you have an example
> where the decisions were made in Yavneh (at al) at the time the month
> was being declared, it could be DISproven.

The very story you quoted, of R Gamliel and R Yehoshua.


> 
> While trying to find an answer, BTW, I found that R' Tam holds that yom
> tov sheini is actually minhag (in the technical sense), not a taqanah.
> He uses this on Beitzah 4b as an example of making berakhos on minhagim.

Where did you see this?  It's not on that page.  RT's opinion that one
makes brochos on things that are *said* because of minhag (but *not* on 
actions of minhag) is on Taanit 28b dh "shma minah", and he doesn't
mention anything about yom tov sheni there.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
zev at sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher