[Avodah] mei marom

[Zev Sero]

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 10:57:19AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> : On the contrary, the entire pshetel *depends* on the identity of the
> : crier, and it makes no sense with Rebbi as the crier.
> 
> I have no idea why you say that. The peshetl simply requires someone to
> note "qoneh olamo besha'ah achas".

No.  If you think that's all it requires, read it again.  The whole
point is not that he noted it but that he cried, and specifically that
it was RChbT who cried.  And he didn't.

 
> :>Leis din veleis Dayan?
> 
> : Of course there is a din and a dayan.  What has that got to do with it?
> : Yesh koneh olamo beshanim harbei.  But there are ways to get on the fast
> : track.  Teshuvah is one of them; why does that bother you less than the
> : other two? (Or more; we have no guarantee that there are only three.)
> 
> Teshuvah is a means of earning olam haba. Qoneh olamo. He got what he
> deserved, even if it only took him sha'ah achas to deserve it.

How does teshuvah earn OHB?  What did he *do* to earn it?  Where is
his life of torah and mitzvos?  Teshuva to get out of gehenom I
understand, but how does it earn OHB?  And yet for Rabbi Eliezer ben
Durdaia it worked, so much that he gets the title "Rabbi".


> Your statement about tzadiq gozeir explicitly relies on the centurion
> NOT deserving it. He wasn't qoneh olamo -- RCbD so-to-speak forced the
> issue despite that. Thus, a lack of justice.

He literally *bought* it.  As for justice, he got in on RChbT's zechus,
not his own.  It's no more unjust than someone inheriting a fortune
from his father.  Or imagine a two-hour line to get into a club, and
yet the performer's groupies are "on the list" and can saunter in
ahead of everyone.  RChbT had enough credit Above to get two people
(and many more) into OHB, and if he chose to spend some of that credit
to get this Roman in, that's his business.  The Roman had something he
needed, so he paid the price demanded.


> You also have yet to explain how a centurion deciding not to go on
> executing Jews but instead to throw in his lot with RCbD doesn't
> quality as teshuvah.

There is literally *nothing* in the gemara to suggest that he decided
any such thing.  He saw his opportunity and offered RChbT a deal. Had
RChbT turned down the deal, there's no reason to suppose he would have
helped him, or changed his behaviour in any way.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
zev at sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher