[Avodah] [Areivim] Halacha of speeding/Jewish ethics curriculum de velopment help

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 09:56:41PM -0400, Rich, R Joel wrote:
: WADR I understand R'MB's point - but while they may have simply "known"
: what is right, imho it is because they resonated to some underlying
: ratzon hashem. Are arguing that the underlying ratzon hashem is not
: reproducible by any algorithm (i.e. it is at some level random)? ...

Actually, I think you did miss R' Moshe Koppel's point, or my version
thereof. At least, that's what it implied by that parenthetic comment.
His whole thesis is that intelligence and Torah are neither algorithmic
NOR random. Yes, they went beyond anything we can do with an algorithm,
but that doesn't mean that "it is at some level random".

In the Artificial Intelligence debates, RMKoppel's position is that
intelligence can't be done in a computer program -- it's something more
than an algorithm.

His book Metahalakhah has a section using information theory to prove
that such a region exists, that there is a third choice. There are
sequences of output that can be described by a program shorter than
themselves for any subset of the data, but the program grows (at a
slower rate) as the output set does. So, it's not an algorithm as
a full algorithm describing the infinite set of possible outputs
would be infinite as well. And it's not random, because it can be
described by something shorter than the sequence of output itself. See
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2008/01/neither-random-nor-predetermined.shtml
for a less short summary.

And so, when on Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 05:28:30PM -0400, Rich, R Joel wrote:
: Semantics perhaps, I would say they used one subconsciously that they
: could/did not articulate.

It's not just semantics. They didn't use an algorithm, they used
something far richer -- intelligence.

There is also a little overstating going on. It's not that we now
switched to algorithms for pesaq. Rather, we rely on more algorithm
than in the past. It's not all-or-nothing, but rather an increasing
reliance on algorithm as the feel for the material deminishes.

This fusion of algorithm and shiqul hadaas (weighing pros and cons) is
what I labeled a "heuristic" in my discussions with RRW. (And at this
point we jump from my understanding of RMK's position to discussing
my own extension beyond his ideas, based on how the thinking in shu"t
looks to me.) I was thinking of the Artificial Intelligence concept of
having rules for coming up with any "good enough" answer when finding the
ideal solution is impractical (eg could be done but would take too long)
or impossible.

A couple of minutes after that second email, at 05:30:50PM -0400,
Rich, R Joel replied to my post:
:> What I see is that the system becomes ever simpler and more rigid,
:> as more dinim transition from the looser "sounds right" to rules. I
:> would want you to produce evidence that the algorithm doesn't actually
:> describe halakhah pesuqah as it exists nor then use that to produce a
:> new pesaq still within the range of valid machloqes.

: Listen to any of the YUTORAH smicha/practical halacha series and you
: will invariably find something like "normally we would say the halacha is
: x, but here we are choshesh for the deiah of Y" (even though "normally"
: we wouldn't and even though no reason is given as to why we are here)

For the above reason, it's not a counter-example.

The algorithm rules out some possibilities outright. But in many cases,
most of the ones requiring a moreh hora'ah, the algorithm only defines
weightings, it only goes as far as giving material for someone to apply
shiqul hadaas. And therefore if the effort or price isn't too high, or the
consequences of doing the wrong thing are major, intelligence (rather
than algorithm) takes over.


On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 03:06:37PM +0000, RRW rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com
added the tangent:
: Tangentially, what sefarim would be the bests text for teaching the
: language of Poskim"?

A historical survey of Shu"t.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
micha at aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
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