[Avodah] YT Sheini Shell Golah and the Internet

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 10:14:40PM +0000, rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com wrote:
: This begs the question:
: Why can't a mistake be made in EY itself?
: And therefore why not 2 days there?

The way I read the gemara, Abayei is saying that at the time, the
community of Bavel got a letter from Israel telling them that YTSSG is
now a din. BD enacted the din to preserving the way things were done.
[My suggestion is to remember al pi re'iyah.] They gave motivation for
the Bavliim to keep it -- because if they don't, someday there might
be a time when the calendar is forgotten altogether.

But that's incentive, not cause. Because what gets quotes in teshuvos
etc is "minhag avoseihem beyadeihem"; the din is understood as trying
to preserve the past.

: RMBluke:
: > There is a machlokes rishonim whether the second day of yom yov is aminhag
: > or a real din d'rabanan. If the latter, then according to thisRambam it
: > cannot be repealed, and will apply even after moshiach

: Lav davka
: The p'saq afaik was predicated upon Hillel II's calculations. When that
: system goes away so might the gzeira.

: [Aside from the fact that a new Sanhedrin may not be bound by any
: precedent anymore, just core TSBK and TSBP. All post-Sinai legislation,
: p'saq, etc. could be subject to review.]

I notice that if you buy into my idea that the general citation of
"minhag avoseihem beyadeihem" is definitive, and therefore one must read
the letter Abayei mentions as a shmuess, YTSSG is not a gezeirah. It
wasn't enacted in order to prevent an error. Rather it's a taqanah,
therefore even the Rambam would allow a repeal.

Off-list, RRW and I discussed this notion of the permanence of gezeiros
WRT dancing and hand-clapping on Shabbos. I think RRW is assuming lav
davka we hold like the Rambam, the future Sanhedrin could hold like
Tosafos.

In the discussio of why we dance on Shabbos, the Rama (OC 339:3) brings
Tosafos (Beitza 30a), which really does appear to ignore or at least
reduce gezeiros that lack any reason.

The Elya Rabba limits this Tosafos to incidentals in the gezeira. The
essence of the gezeira is playing musical instruments. Hand clapping
and dancing were added as effectively musical instruments, and therefore
these two side-items could be repealed leshitas Tosafos.

Mecholos was prohibited, which is dancing as a percussion instrument.
This is befeirush in the Y-mi.
The question of whether that includes all dancing is a matter of pesaq.
The Toras Shabbos understand the Y-mi as only including dancing where
there is a period of time when both feet are off the floor.
And so many rely on the Tosafos WRT dancing only because of a
combination of senifim lehaqeil.

The MB cites the Maharal that Tosafos is talking bemaqom mitzvah. So,
dancing for divrei chol on Shabbos would still be assur.

Taking a temperature for piryah verivyah, where the reason doesn't apply
(goods for sale are not measured by temperature) and its bemaqom mitzvah
would therefore qualify for Tosafos's qulah. (Which is akin to what RZS
already said in that thread.)

RMF (IM OC 2:100) seems to say that in general, Tosafos's shitah is
explicable by placing the reason as an adjective to the item. The gezeira
wasn't on mayim megulim as megulim, but on water that has a cheshash of
containing venom. RMF gives melakh sedomis as another (more explicit,
IMHO) example of where Tosafos see the sezeira as limited to instances
where the risk exists. RMF can't understand the case of dancing using
this explanation, and therefore he is maarich.

The point of all this it twofold:
I found these mar'eh meqomos, largely from R' Yonasan Sigler, and
thought others might be interested.

More on point to our discussion, we see that later development of the
din struggles with and limits the Tosafos. The Elya Rabba wouldn't
apply it to YT sheini, since we're talking about the core gezeira.
Those who also invoke the Y-mi don't have other senifim lehaqeil
YTSSG. The Maharal's sevara would apply to doing a devar mitzvah
only. (A formula rife with possibilities of YT sheini falling apart
altogether, as per the C driving responsum, but that's a side issue.)
And leshitas RMF, you would have to argue that the gezeira was on
a yom tov sheini that might get confused only, a shverer argument but I
guess it could be made.

All of which presumes that it's in the technical category of gezeiros,
and not another kind of din derabbanan.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,
micha at aishdas.org        yet the smallest coin can obstruct his view.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
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