[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 03:12:54PM -0400, Joseph Kaplan wrote:
: RMB's analysis of tzni'ut is very interesting but I believe it has  
: absolutely nothing to do with the real world.  Sure, men have the  
: same obligation of tzni'ut that women have, but men are "forced" to  
: participate publicly because someone has to daven for the amud etc.  

Again (although I think RJK submitted this before seeing my recent post),
I think you're conflating the real with the ideal.

The fact is that in the way our society is structured, men are encouraged
to ignore tzeni'us in our pursuit of other goals. That doesn't change
the ideal, that tzeni'us is a central element in imitatio dei. However,
it reflects a compromise we already made.

The question before us now is whether the right decision is to further
compromise the value of tzeni'us, or to resist an innovation that would
nearly entirely eliminate it from our daily lives. There would be no
reminder that service of G-d is supposed to be from a position of "besokh
ami anokhi yosheves" and that being seated on the duchan is supposed
to be a source of embarassment, that the quiet service of the Almighty
outside the shul is more fundamental than being a functionary within it.

IOW, yes you're right, what I said has nothing to do with the real
world. It's about the future world and do we want it to be further from
the role of tzeni'us in the ideal world than we are already, or not?

On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 03:18:47PM -0400, Dov Weinstock wrote:
: RHS in the article Micha linked to states:
:> Part of our obligation of v'holachto b'drachav, to imitate G-d, i.e. to
:> preserve and maintain those divine attributes that were implanted
:> within us, requires of us to lead private lives; not to be seeking
:> the limelight; not to be loud in speech, in dress, or in
:> action. Hakadosh Baruch Hu is described by the Navi Yehsaya as a
:> "kel mistater".

: Bemichalat kvodo, God is also described as 'el nekamot'. Why choose
: one over the other?

This week's parashah "beqan'o es qin'asi"... Twould seem neqamah lesheim
Shamayim is to be emulated.

In any case and FWIW, RYBS defines anavah as the imitatio dei of tzimtzum,
and would probably answer that a conflict of competing values is the
very dialectic that human nature is based upon. Not a proof of falsity,
but very typical for how HQBH set up the moral landscape.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
micha at aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
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