[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 02:14:02PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
: >NOT AT ALL! Sorry for the caps, but you seem to have missed all the
: >times I contrasted Maharat to Yoezef and Toenet during the course of
: >this thread. I felt a need to "say it louder".

: Actually I read it and dismissed it.  If your argument is one based on 
: kavod what possible distinction could there be? But if, to add another 
: quotation

My argument is that you need to have something outweighing the loss of
tzeni'us. That something depends on what the job is.

: >Here we are watching RAW go a major step beyond -- a school for women
: >who are rabbis in everything but actual name. Same curriculum and test
: >as Yoreh Yoreh going out for the same kinds of pulpits.

: your objection seems to be not tznius but innovation.  I find that 
: argument a lot more appealing, but it's not the argument you've been making.

No, it's both. It's justifying innovaiton in the face of loss of
tzeni'us. Justifying innovation requires the pros outweighing the cons
to the point of having sufficient motive.

:>Because lemaaseh, there is no talk about institutionalizing male
:>leadership of a new sort.

: But it is something we've done since immigrating to the USA.  The 
: rabbinate here is nothing like it was in Europe....

Eastern Europe. A Hildesheimer alumnus was quite similar. His job was
sermonizing, counseling and life cycle events.

But stull, that's not our current conversation.

Even if you were to argue that we erred, and the current role of rabbi
is one more frought with negatives than with positives, that would be
true for the Maharat taking the same role IN ADDITION to the current
conversation without this addition.

: > Why the really odd assumption that I didn't weight pros and cons and
: >consciously make that decision? Actually, the girl in question had an
: >eclectic education from both chareidi and MO institutions, as her needs
: >evolved.

: You made an individualized decision rather than adopting a 
: one-size-fits-all solution.  Something you wish to forbid in our case ....

Because there is only one seminary per community. This isn't a decision
that fits individual choice. The question is communal, not personal, by
nature of its content.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
micha at aishdas.org        once you get to know them.
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