[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[David Riceman]

Micha Berger wrote:
> NOT AT ALL! Sorry for the caps, but you seem to have missed all the
> times I contrasted Maharat to Yoezef and Toenet during the course of
> this thread. I felt a need to "say it louder".
>   
Actually I read it and dismissed it.  If your argument is one based on 
kavod what possible distinction could there be? But if, to add another 
quotation
> Here we are watching RAW go a major step beyond -- a school for women
> who are rabbis in everything but actual name. Same curriculum and test
> as Yoreh Yoreh going out for the same kinds of pulpits.
>   
your objection seems to be not tznius but innovation.  I find that 
argument a lot more appealing, but it's not the argument you've been making.
> Because lemaaseh, there is no talk about institutionalizing male
> leadership of a new sort.
But it is something we've done since immigrating to the USA.  The 
rabbinate here is nothing like it was in Europe.  We have preserved the 
same title and a fraction of the same training, but the job is very 
different.  I have argued previously in this thread that by diluting the 
title we have also diluted the kavod, but you don't seem to buy that.
>  Why the really odd assumption that I didn't weight pros and cons and
> consciously make that decision? Actually, the girl in question had an
> eclectic education from both chareidi and MO institutions, as her needs
> evolved.
>   
You made an individualized decision rather than adopting a 
one-size-fits-all solution.  Something you wish to forbid in our case ....
> (At some point I might critique the disadvantages of trying to raise
> children without affiliation to a particular O movement, but this isn't
> the appropriate venue, nor is all the data in yet. The biggest danger:
> Be very careful with the negative criticism, lest you create the illusion
> that you believe that since no O movement fits your bill, O as a whole
> does not.)
>   
Our objection is not to the institutions of orthodoxy but to the 
institution of school, which is a major waste of time (and trains the 
inability to concentrate for more than short stretches of time) - - and 
another institutional innovation of the modern era.  If we could just 
dump him in a beis midrash half a day, and a library half a day, with a 
chavrusa,  a shoeil umeishiv, and occasional tests, we'd be very happy.

David Riceman