[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Chana Luntz]

RMB wrote:
> Or, should our attention be focused on correcting the basic 
> conflation, of returning women to their grandmother's "bas melekh penimah"

> orientation?

I don't have any real difficulty with this (as opposed to what it appeared
to me was your redefinition of the value of public roles in general in
yahadus).  And I certainly agree with your view that change needs to be
viewed with caution.

But in all of this high level discussion - you have avoided the hard
questions I tried to ask you, specifically about the nature of grandmother's
(actually these days for many of us we may be talking great-grandmother at
least, but I guess it depends on your generation) bas melekh penimah and the
circumstances that created that - or at least the modern circumstances that
mitigate again such roles.

And I was asking especially of you, who, because of your mussar bent, and in
light of your recent posts, highlight concepts such as ase l'cha rav.

> To summarize: My biggest complaint is that I do not see 
> anyone exploring
> whether the change is forced upon us, and if so questioning if it's
> a positive value. I don't see the active conscious confrontation with
> modernity, the whole thing RYBS describes in terms of the tension of
> the dialectic.

So, I was asking you to do that - and specifically about the change that has
gone on in the lives of young women -prior to their marriage.  As I tried to
indicate, the reality is in non charedi circles, young women are spending a
decade or two post puberty but prior to marriage.  Obviously at least the
first two to four years of that is indeed forced upon us (depending on the
dina d'malchusa dina of wherever it is you live - in England you need to be
16, but other parts of the world differ).   Please explore whether the rest
is indeed forced upon us?  Do the pros of later marriage outweigh the cons?
Do the methods used by some communities to encourage earlier marriage
outweigh the cons?  -You must have children in the parsha by now (or at
least would have if you were conforming to certain of our communities'
norms)?  Are you activating the shidduch system to the best of your ability?
Certainly traditionally it was the father whose responsibility it was - are
you taking on that traditional responsibility, or has your encounter with
modernity altered your relationship to your traditional responsibility?
Have you had an active conscious confrontation with that reality (and your
children, if their views differ from yours), or have you just just accepted
modernity in this regard?

Simply put, are you trying to get your children (and I know it is mostly
sons at this stage, but you need the sons to marry other people's daughters)
married off as soon as possible or are you letting them make a much more
independent assessment than a pre-modern mindset would allow?  Are you
trying to educate them towards a parnassa before you get them (or let them)
get married off?

That is, the first question is, are you confronting the change towards much
latter marriage or are you accommodating it?  

Now of course the modern approach is that one should delay marriage, at
least until one has had time to complete university and hence have (for both
parties to the marriage) the tools to earn a reasonable parnassa without
having to deal with the birth and raising of children during that period of
study.  What is your view on this?  This change is not, like the legal age
of marriage, forced upon us in quite the same way.  Some of the financial
scandals, however, that you are decrying, certainly risk being aggravated,
do they not, if people marry before they have a chance of completing
university, and hence risk struggling to provide a parnassa for their
families when they have them?    Pros? cons?

And then, if you are prepared to recognise that there are those who do think
that this change of women marrying later is indeed forced upon us by
economic necessity, if nothing else, how do you provide the spiritual
nourishment that may have traditionally been available via marriage, without
a marriage? I get back to the question of ase l'cha rav.  For a woman who is
yet to marry, do you hold that aseh l'cha rav, is a positive mitzvah?  If
so, how should it be achieved, given the modern hurdles?  Or is the correct
price to pay that a woman needs to put her spiritual growth (not to mention
halachic observance) on hold during her teenage and twenties (if not
thirties) while she pursues her secular studies?  If not, how is growth to
be achieved given that the traditional supports available to her grandmother
in her bas melech penima role are not available to her during this period?  

And yet a further question.  One aspect of modernity is, as you have
identified, the Beis Ya'akov movement, including the seminary movement.  Are
the methods employed there the correct ones?  Does it matter so long as they
operate under the radar of men and ultimately produce women who are willing
to marry men?  Would it bother you, for example, if you were to learn that
there were multitude teachings (and would it matter if they were correct
teachings or misteachings) of halacha in the women's seminaries?  Or maybe
it doesn't matter because after a few years they will get sorted out by
their husbands?   Is the issue that is bothering you about this whole
maharat business that it is being done before men as well as women?  Would
such an innovation be acceptable if it only happened within the women's
seminaries (and maybe you therefore weren't even aware of it)?  Or is it the
title?  Would it be OK if there were women fulfilling the role for other
women in the seminaries (whatever role you identify, from poskening shialas
to giving counselling)?  Would it be considered public then, or is it still
part of bas melech penima?  

You say that your problem is that people are not truly grappling with the
issues raised by modernity.  So please grapple.


> Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,


Regards

Chana