[Avodah] Tzni'us and gender roles

[Arie Folger]

RMB asked:
> Is the benefit a Maharat over a Yoetzet bring to the table the public's
> or in her opportunity to serve G-d in the way the contemporary world
> told her was more valuable? Or the benefit of being at the amud for
> Pesuqei Dezimara rather than behind the mechitzah that of the
> community?

Again, I am not desirous of engaging in this debate, seeing as you
guys are doing a fantastic job of analyzing all the most relevant
angles. However, thanks to RMMakovi, I came accross the following
translated quote from Rav Kook, that matches remarkably what RMB
writes, whithout the tzniut lomdut. One could say that it anticipates
one possible resolution of your debate.

> The great religious Zionist rabbi, A.I. Kook, was certainly no
> egalitarian towards women, but at least he remained cognizant
> of the ethical costs and dangers entailed by traditional inter-
> gender relations:
>
>> The virtue of modesty effects many benefits in the world, and
>> therefore it is deemed important enough to negate other virtues,
>> desirable in themselves, but which, because of man’s passions
>> and weakness of character, might result in a breach of modesty
>> on which the spiritual and material worlds depend. The virtues
>> of love and friendship, in all their expressions, should have been
>> the same for both sexes, but because of the high value of modesty
>> is the virtue of good manners superseded so that the sages once
>> advised a man not to extend a greeting to a married woman
>> (Kiddushin 70b).
>> The modest person recognizes that this is not because of hostility
>> to the feminine sex that he keeps his distance and establishes
>> restraints, but because of a general rule that is sound.

(from: http://tinyurl.com/10curses )

While the above does not deal with tzniut-as-privacy, not even with
tzniut-insofar-as-it-is-gender-neutral, it does state that there are
conflicting values, and that sometimes we sacrifice valid personal
values for the sake of valid public values. Applied here it would
validate the intent and the values behind the intent of, say, a
Maharat, while giving overarching conflicting values to block that
particular avenue.

IOW, Rav Kook tends to deal with the latest twist in your respective
analyses, namely, the possible tension between personal development
and societal contribution. Quietism vs. activism. Some flavors of
Mussar vs. public service.

Disclaimer: I am not at all knowledgeable in Rav Kook's writings,
knowing only a little of it and only third hand, so don0t think I
claim this is Rav Kook's definitive quote on the matter - frankly, I
have no idea. Furthermore, I am not trying to argue for one position
or another. In this debate, I just try to contribute some sources, and
otherwise watch from the sidelines. It is really fascinating. Yasher
koach!

[Email #2. -mi]


Haha, I end up criticizing my own post ... (feels like having some egg
on own face)...

On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Arie Folger<arie.folger at gmail.com> wrote:
> While the above does not deal with tzniut-as-privacy, not even with
> tzniut-insofar-as-it-is-gender-neutral, it does state that there are
> conflicting values, and that sometimes we sacrifice valid personal
> values for the sake of valid public values. Applied here it would
> validate the intent and the values behind the intent of, say, a
> Maharat, while giving overarching conflicting values to block that
> particular avenue.

RMB, a little later in his post I was pegging mine to, states:
> Think of how ironic your description is. If I came in to the conversation
> at this point, I would think that you're saying I want to accomodate the
> individual women's desire for religiosity, and you're the one trying to
> preserve the social structure.

And of course, that was a possible solution I was proposing based on
Rav Kook's statement, a solution RMB rejected. Nonetheless, Rav Kook's
attitude remains interesting. Somehow, I think that acknowledging the
validity of one's aims is considered as more important and supportive
than supoprting the particular way in which these aims are carried
out. So, despite RMB's rejection of such an approach, it may be worth
considering (by him, too). I'd love to see his take on the Rav Kook
quote.

Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
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