[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[Arie Folger]

On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Chana Luntz<chana at kolsassoon.org.uk> wrote:
> No we are not.  The point at which this all occurs (ie where the father
> speaks, and on which Rashi comments) is where the innocence of the woman is
> already a given, and the father is suing for reparations for slander - ie it
> is the "civil" litigation after the criminal one has already been resolved
> in the woman's favor (the physical evidence of her virginity has already
> been laid before the court).

Nice try, and indeed, 22:15 could indicate that you are right, except
that 22:17, by repeating that the parents are presenting the evidence,
shows that we probably do not distinguish between the criminal and the
civil aspect of the suit. Once the girl's innocence has been proven,
he is fined, assuming all conditions for the fine are met.

Furthermore, while you would make a lot of sense, considering that a
12 year old girl may not be most apt at defending herself and standing
up to her rights in court, the Sifrei does not consider this
interpretation, stating instead that this is the prooftext wherehence
we establish that the woman should not speak up in court in front of
the man. Indeed, you recognize this when you write:

> It is not clear,
> however, given that the monetary claim is not to come to her, what would be
> the basis on which the girl should have standing to speak.

KT,

-- 
Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Barukh She-Amar Elucidated
* The Anatomy of a Beracha
* Basic Building Blocks of Jewish Prayer