On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:33:14PM +0000, kennethgmiller at juno.com wrote: : Are you saying that if a 12 1/2 year old boy has sa'aros, then on a : d'Oraisa level he is a safek gadol? No, because sorfin al hachazaqos. Rather than saying it's "on a deOraisa level", I would say it's more like kelapai Shamaya galya he may be a gadol. Tir'u baTov! -Micha