[Avodah] bat mitzva "bo bayom"

[Zev Sero]

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 01:28:16PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> :>The halakhah deOraisa has no significance to a particular age, and is
> :>entirely about the individual's rates of development.
> 
> : I'm sorry, what is your source for this?  AFAIK shanim are absolutely
> : required, and any hair before the appropriate age *is* shuma.  We're
> : not "unsure" whether it's shuma, it's shuma by definition.
> 
> Shuma means mole. We don't define a mole by age; we're obviously (to me)
> talking about assumptions. If the kid is too young for pubic hair to be
> likely, we assume it's a wart.

If it's only an assumption then how could we allow an 11-year-old
girl with hair to be mema'en?  Maybe this is real hair and not shuma,
and then she'd be an adult, and we're allowing her to marry another
man without a get?  Surely that would be a safek d'oraisa!  The only
explanation that I can see is that there's no safek, underage hair is
considered vadai shuma by definition.  See Rashi dh "mema'enes
veholeches" on 46a.



> Looking at tengential references... Niddah 48a doesn't mention a minimum
> age. Nor Y-mi Yevamos, Y-mi Kesuvos...

It doesn't have to, because we've already established on 45b-46a that
underage hair doesn't count.


 
> According to the Shitah Mequbetzes (BB 56b, "veli ani") writes that the
> 2 sa'aros cause the halachic chalos, that aren't merely indicators of it.

Again, before shanim they simply don't count as hair.  His point is
merely that sa'aros *after shanim* are not merely symptoms of gadlus
but the cause.  As opposed to the Rosh that you quote next.

 
> The Rosh (Gittin 9:11), citing Rabbeinu Chananel, says that it's
> intelectual maturity that causes adulthood. If we could measure that, it
> would define adulthood. Since we can't we use simanim.

But the simanim are sa'aros *and shanim*.  He's just saying that these
are only a symptom of the real phenomenon, which we can't measure
directly, and thus disagreeing with the ShM you quoted above.

 
> All of the above define adulthood by sa'aros alone. I would say that's
> consistent with age being derivative.

Sorry, I don't see it, because if there was any safek then we wouldn't
allow mi'un.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev at sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas