[Avodah] the Shoah [was: TIDE and Austritt]

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:29 AM, <T613K at aol.com> wrote:

>   From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe at gmail.com>
> >>See The Siyyum of Sota in which 2 rabbis in the same city who do NOT
> learn
> from each other [nocheh to learn] one dies and one is exiled. This sounds a
> LOT like the reality of the holocaust, that rabbis who refused to talk
> were either killed or exiled from their homes. How prescient of the Talmud
> to see that Rabbis who cannot get along.....<<
>
> >>>>>>
> I've heard some pretty far-fetched explanations of what caused the Shoah,
> but this is a new one on me.  Whenever anyone even hints that such and such
> a sin was the "reason" for the Holocaust or that the actions of such and
> such a group (Reform, maskilim, Zionists, anti-Zionists) "led to" the
> Holocaust, or that a particular group somehow "deserved" to die or brought
> their fate on themselves, there are always cries of outraged indignation.
> Let me be the first to express outraged indignation on this occasion.  It is
> outrageous to suggest that the principles of austritt ("rabbis who refused
> to talk to each other") somehow led to or triggered the Holocaust or were
> foreseen by the Talmud as the reason for chachamim being "either killed or
> exiled" in the Shoah.
> *
> *
> *--Toby Katz
> =============*
>

You misread my post.
I was suggsting taht the two rabbis who did NOT engag inlearning with each
other fulfilled tghe prediction in the Talmud.  I made NO SUCH SUGGESTION
that this was a a CAUSE of the holocaust. There is NO such causal connexion
suggestion, implied, insinuated or otherwise.

The only point was simple, as a RESULT [not as a cause] of the holocaust the
prediction MADE BY THE TALMUD was fulfilled - uncannily while we were inteh
mnidst of a discussion of Austritt came this VERY SAME DAF!  How can we DENY
teh Yad Hashem wWho so graciously has infomred us of the error of our ways

Umipnei hcataineu galinu NOT mipenti Tzadukim, Baissusim etc. Nor Is it fair
to BLAME Reform et.c on the same basis. WE ARE the raders of the Talmud and
it is up to US to introspectively subject OURSELVES to such scrutiny!

It is "Oh jsut so easy" to blame "Yennem" and be a 'sonei tochachos". That
is NOT what mussar or eve nthe Talmud's clear lesson to us states.

Everyone wantsto praise Auustritt as jsut what HKBH wants.  Well maybe the
chacham who is ro;eh es hanolad may see a VERY different pricture.
Certianly the Talmud suggests that if 2 rabbis cannot get alone IN THE SAME
COMMUNITY all is not well.

And it IS A HISTORICAL FACT that many of these same rabbis lost their lives
or their homes. Kind of chilling thought, eh?  I fail to se how one CANNOT
connect the dots when faced with such overwhelming Talmudic Aggadic
statements that unfortunately are so obviously fulfilled.

But then again, 2 Jews 3 opinions.

FWIW, American Reform Judaism during the 19th century accepted the Talmud as
the offical interpretation of the Tanach. [source Professor Grinstein OBM]
which gives pause to how seriously DO we take these Talmudic statements to
heart or are we going to imposse OUR OWN "ism's" upon them and ignore them
at our own peril.

Or to state it another way, people SEEM to be saying we follow the Talmud
WHEN it does not shift any of our preconceived notions or paradigms - Bbut
as soon as it shakes our foundations we glibly look askance and come up with
alternate spins.   And indeed that might be the case when the reality maps
out otehrwise, but whe nteh facts MATCH the text, how can we STILL be so
resistent?





-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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