[Avodah] TIDE and Austritt

[Micha Berger]

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 02:19:17PM -0400, T613K at aol.com wrote:
: RMB:  >>For that matter, what challenges the supremacy  of Torah?
: NCSY's anthem closes with the words "see what it means /
: that  Torah reigns supreme!" And yet they are the product of RYBS's
: kelapei chutz  / kelapei fenim dichotomy.<<

: TK:  Where do you see that NCSY is "the product of RYBS's
: kelapei  chutz / kelapei fenim dichotomy"?!  Does NCSY have joint activities 
: with  non-O youth groups?!  

The Israel Day Parade. When I was a kid -- they helped us get to SSSJ
rallies. And of course the OU and the SCA.

...
: TK:  It is obvious that in today's terms austritt has a different,  maybe 
: less radical, application...

Then it's not Austritt.

: RMB:  >>Now, on to the  third question... Can the American-style chareidi be 
: said to be living TiDE  whether he acknowledges it or not?....

: It is relevant because RnTK said  she believes that most of the Torah
: world today is TiDE, they just don't know  it. If they do, it's not TiDE
: as RSRH formulated the idea.<<

: TK:  It is DEFINITELY not TIDE as Hirsch envisioned it!  

How can we discuss whether RSRH crafted TiDE in a manner that includes
Austritt if you aren't speaking of RSRH's TiDE or RSRH's Austritt?

Of course I could come up with some variant of each which wouldn't work
together, and another pair which couldn't work in isolation. Thus, I
could force either answer just by playing by what TiDE and Austritt mean.



That said, I like RGS's position, and am inclined to conclude not that
TiDE includes Austritt, but that both are parts of one larger picture.
One you can not split and still claim to be following RSRH on either.

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 09:21:20AM -0700, Gershon Seif wrote:
: First there's the universal plan for Man. (the hope for no need for
: Austritt since Mankind is all on the same page)
: When Man fails and society declines, Avrohom Avinu emerges.
: 
: He is told "lech l'cha." Austritt...

: Klal Yirsrael is live apart in Mitzrayim, Is to live apart in Ertez
: Yisrael.....

When I was in school, the US was descrived as a cultural Melting Pot.
That pot cost many Jews their Yahadus, as they sought to become Real
Americans. As a voter in NYC, I got a taste of Mayor Dinken's rhetoric,
describing NY's culture as a glorious mosaic.

A mosaic in interestingly different than a melting pot. He jetisonned
the implication that we're all to end up with a single blended culture,
and instead spoke of the beauty of painting a larger picture by each of
us retaining our ethnic identities.

Looking over RGS's references, I hear RSRH as trying to walk that
balance. Making sure that Judaism constributes to and participates
the big picture of humanity, but doing so in a way that we retain our
integrity. TiDE plus Austritt provides that balance between Universalism
and Particularlism.

As for why Austritt applies to R and not Schiller... I actually think that
was a product of the metzius about which he was pasqening. O Jews weren't
running straight into German Protestant arms. Schiller wasn't threatening
integrity. Rather than my previous idea, that Austritt is from rebels
(and thus would include few in the liberal communities today), after
reading those parts Bereishis as RGS spins them I'm inlined to believe
that Austritt is from whatever Ism is actually succeeding in pulling
people away. I would argue that there is no such Ism today, except if
you want to call it Instant Gratification-ism or Creature Comfort-ism.

It's not "chokhmah bagoyim ta'amin" that distinguishes them, as the notion
that anyone can have chokhmah (that isn't Torah) would include R as well.

And so, I would still argue the ukimta that Austritt has no target
bizman hazeh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
micha at aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch