[Avodah] TIDE and Austritt

[T613K at aol.com]

RMB: >>Does TIDE necessitate Austritt, or are they two ideas  emerging from
the same mind?
 
TK:  Torah necessitates austritt.<<
 
 
 


RMB:  >>For that matter, what challenges the supremacy  of Torah?
NCSY's anthem closes with the words "see what it means /
that  Torah reigns supreme!" And yet they are the product of RYBS's
kelapei chutz  / kelapei fenim dichotomy.<<
 
 
 
TK:  Where do you see that NCSY is "the product of RYBS's
kelapei  chutz / kelapei fenim dichotomy"?!  Does NCSY have joint activities 
with  non-O youth groups?!  
 
 
 
 
RMB:  >>To repeat my question, which I feel you left  unanswered both in this 
post
and when RRW asked the question at length: In  what way does a Protestant
who studied for the clergy (Friedrich Schiller)  not dispute the supremacy
of Torah, but when Jews get together to do so, or  even shomerei Torah
umitzvos who are simply willing to get together with  those who do so,
it is? What makes R further from Torah than trinitarian  Xianity?<<
 
TK:  You asked this question of R' Shmuel Svarc and I look forward  to seeing 
his answer, but I will say that Schiller was an open Christian and did  not 
claim to be a Jew.  Had he claimed to be a Jew, and to have a correct  
understanding of Judaism, it would certainly be assur to give him the time of  day, or 
to read his books in anything other than two-fisted "dah ma lehashiv"  mode.  
 
 
It is also my understanding that Hirsch did not advocate studying  
Christianity or Christian theology -- and that Schiller was a philosopher,  not a 
theologian.  Reading a book of philosophy is akin  to reading a book of science or 
medicine.  (In fact the distinction  between philosophy and science was not a 
clear one at all before the 20th  century.)   Is there anyone at all who would 
refuse to read a  medical textbook because its author happened to be a Reform 
Jew or a  non-Jew?  Anyone?


RMB:  >>There is clearly no problem pulling DE from a  tainted source, since a
trinitarian is far from supporting  Torah.<<
 
TK:  That is correct.  Chachma bagoyim ta'amin, Torah bagoyim al  ta'amin.  
We don't read them for their theology, we do read them for their  secular 
knowledge. 





RMB:  :> Would the Austritt community not use records of who is  a Tay Sachs 
carrier
:> because the population was tested under a  Federation program? 

RSS: No. But if they had to recognize that the  Federation was the
: standard-bearer, blah blah blah, then yes. They would  set up their own.

RMB:  I don't know what you're inserting between  your no and your yes, but
1- Lemaaseh, multiple small registries is  pointless; you wouldn't know
about too many carriers that way; and
2- The  fact that you can have a conditional "yes" is already non-Austritt.
 
TK:  Austritt deals with the possible.  Hirsch himself did not  withdraw from 
the general community until he was legally and practically able to  do so.  A 
Jew in the Gemeinde community /before/ Hirsch came to Frankfurt  would not 
have had a personal obligation to withdraw and become a hermit if  there was no 
other alternative.  
 
 


RMB:  >>If Austritt applied today it would mean shunning  the OU and RCA
and avoiding functions where the O rabbi belonged to the SCA  or some
still-existing parallel. Even political lobbying. Possibly not even  giving
credance to the OU hechsher until they renounce RYBS's SCA  responsum.<<
 
TK:  It is obvious that in today's terms austritt has a different,  maybe 
less radical, application.  Maybe you can come up with a different  word.  
Actually there are some O rabbis who really /should/ be shunned by  all O rabbis -- 
"CLAL" comes to mind.  But it doesn't happen.  America  really doesn't have 
the official, legal communal framework that they had in  Frankfurt (and 
elsewhere in Europe).  So Austritt here couldn't take the  same form even if we wanted 
it to.


RMB:  >>Now, on to the  third question... Can the American-style chareidi be 
said
to be living TiDE  whether he acknowledges it or not?....

It is relevant because RnTK said  she believes that most of the Torah
world today is TiDE, they just don't know  it. If they do, it's not TiDE
as RSRH formulated the idea.<<
 
TK:  It is DEFINITELY not TIDE as Hirsch envisioned it!  
 
It is merely a series of ad hoc accommodations that demonstrate  conclusively 
that TIDE /in some form/ is necessary.   Unconscious  sort-of TIDE merely 
proves what a terrible pity it is that Hirsch is not more  widely read and 
understood.



RMB:  RnTK is willing to state  what RSRH believed based on the assumption 
RNB's
position was identical to  Hirsch's. That's impossible....However,
here it is in her own words (Apr  30th, v25n127):
> How I know what he would have thought about this or that  is that RSRH
> was an ehrlicher Yid who followed da'as Torah (which I am  defining as
> "the consensus of what most Torah leaders think and  teach").

> Also my father channeled Hirsch and is probably sitting  with him right
> now in Gan Eden.

That doesn't replace actually  studying RSRH. 
 
TK:  No two people think exactly alike, even a rebbe and his  closest talmid. 
 Kesheim she'ein partzufeihem domos, ein dei'oseihem  domos.  So to say that 
"RNB's position was identical to Hirsch's" is  indeed, ridiculous and 
impossible.  The particular question we  discussed at that time was whether Hirsch 
would have applied his austritt  philosophy to the State of Israel, and would 
therefore have adopted the Neturei  Karta position.  I remain absolutely 100% 
certain that he would not have  been NK but would have been straight Aguda RW 
frum on this particular  question.
 
 
 


--Toby  Katz
=============
President Reagan talked with the Soviets  while pushing ahead with the 
deployment of Cruise and Pershing missiles in  Europe. He spoke softly — after 
getting himself a bigger stick.  --Mark  Steyn




**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music 
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!      
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080711/0abdbb35/attachment-0002.htm>