[Avodah] TIDE and Austritt

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 12:56:50AM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
: TIDE requires Austritt. If one recognizes something other than Torah then
: the Torah in TIDE is not reigning supreme.

: As for the "possibility of cooperation on non-Torah matters", this is
: something that needs more detail to be answered intelligently. Oh' and TIDE
: doesn't recognize any "Non-Torah matters", as all of DE is part of the
: rubric on which Torah must be the master of.

How does this argument exclude R (or, as RRW pointed out, even
non-Austritt O), but not Schiller? Clearly RSRH divided the world into
at least three: Torah, DE, and things one must shun. Thus there is DE
or potential DE, things that could serve Torah IF one chooses to give
them the Torah's form. Survival of Jews would seem to qualify.

:> RYBS's midpoint answer also insists on a society in which Torah reigns
:> supreme. However, it does so without cutting themselves off from the
:> non-observant world in matters in which that allegiance isn't threatened.

: I'm no expert on RYBS, so no comment.

He sought a way to work together on common cause without implying any
religious legitimacy. Rather than total exclusion, he divided pragmatic
survival questions from religious ones.

Would the Austritt community not use records of who is a Tay Sachs carrier
because the population was tested under a Federation program? (Okay, by
picking an extreme case I run potentially afoul of piquach nefesh issues.)

...
: The beauty of RSRH's torah is that he didn't address certain situations and
: build things on them. He built edifices of thought based on what the Torah
: says, and with that addressed situations. So the answer is: No. Austritt is
: not bound to one particular situation but rather that nothing may reduce
: Torah's dominion...

What does this mean? How does one have a pesaq that is NOT a function
of the metzi'us at hand? Yes, there are ideals. But what were they? What
feature of German R and the Gemeinde was the subject of Austritt's
ideal? And does it still exist today.

RnTK:
: > : I admit that that whole last paragraph has no source other than my gut
: > : feeling, based on the emanations of penumbras from the corpus of
: > : Hirsch's writings.

Me:
: > WADR, though, you already "admitted" a few weeks backthat your view
: > of TiDE is based on the assumption that your father (note to newbies:
: > RNBulman) "channeled" RSRH. OTOH, I can not picture someone of your
: > gather's stature adopting someone else's hashkafah wholesale, with no
: > personalization.

: So which points do you think RNB personalized, and what is your evidence for
: those points? Lacking those, it appears that your intent is more to
: disqualify RTK from basically ever voicing an opinion on TIDE (as opposed to
: just straight quoting from RSRH), with the handy rebuttal, "That's RNB not
: TIDE".

The chareidi world as a whole toned down TiDE, IMHO. Since RnTK wrote
that she believes her father's TiDE is RSRH's exactly, and I disagree,
anything she says based on emanations of penumbras won't convince me.
Yes, my intent is to disqualify RnTK's unsourced opinions of TiDE in
the kinds of issues where R' Danziger and R' Elias disagree.

: Even when two separate people (one of whom never heard RNB) give essentially
: the same answer? Something is compelling, but I think it's more your desire
: to find Austritt amenable to certain participations with non-O communities.

I have no need to find Austritt amenable to anything. My greatgrandfather
was a Gemenider rav in Frankfurt. See his Divrei Shalom veEmes
<http://www.hebrewbooks.org/1559> a 66 page volley in a battle with R'
Breuer over the eruv. (Is a city today mefulash? Can mechalelei Shabbos
effectively be made to rely on the eiruv without agreeing to the need
in having one? Etc...) RSRH's Austritt has little emotional hold on me.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
micha at aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org   I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabindranath Tagore