[Avodah] TIDE and Austritt

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 02:34:15PM -0400, ssvarc at yeshivanet.com wrote:
: R' Micha ... asked:
: A question for Avodah -- were Austritt and TiDE inextractably linked as
: one overall hashkafah? Or can one agree with RSRH on TiDE but relegate
: Austritt to a time when R was in rapid growth and a challenge to O?
...
: To me it is clear, after reading R' Elias ;) and Collected Writings, that
: they are inextricably linked. It is a clear outgrowth of the need for the
: Torah to reign supreme in all areas, including communal as well.

: However, the question of his reaction to Israel is more complicated, and I
: won't venture a guess as to where he would of ended up. Someplace on the
: spectrum from Brisk (total Austritt) to Agudah (ideological Austritt but
: pragamatic cooperation), where exactly I don't know.

It seems to me that while in your first paragraph you say that it's
clear that TiDE implies Austritt, regardless of which community it is
you're walking away from, in your second paragraph you open the door to
the possibility of cooperation on non-Torah matters.

RYBS's midpoint answer also insists on a society in which Torah reigns
supreme. However, it does so without cutting themselves off from the
non-observant world in matters in which that allegiance isn't threatened.

On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 10:05:54AM -0400, T613K at aol.com wrote:
: If you are asking whether austritt was a hora'as sha'ah -- no, I really
: don't think so.

Not really. I'm asking whether Austritt means a rejection of a particular
kind of anti-O community, one that does not describe today's pathetic
legacy of that community.

My model isn't one of hora'as sha'ah, it's of uqimta.

German R had the votes. They therefore controlled the resources. They
were hostile and had a triumphalist air. Cooperation on matters of
survival wasn't really an option.

So how do you know RSRH woudn't have made a kelapei fenim / kelapei
chutz or similar distinction?  And in fact, you (like RMYG above) seem
to open the door to some less absolutist possibility when you write:

: I also believe that he would have seen the events of the 20th century in E'Y 
: as a mixture of ohr vechoshech mishtamshim be'irbuvya, not purely the work 
: of the Satan -- that he would have seen the many positive developments as a 
: bracha from Hashem and a sign of His continuing love of His people, "metzitz 
: min hacharakim."

: I admit that that whole last paragraph has no source other than my gut 
: feeling, based on the emanations of penumbras from the corpus of
: Hirsch's writings.

WADR, though, you already "admitted" a few weeks backthat your view
of TiDE is based on the assumption that your father (note to newbies:
RNBulman) "channeled" RSRH. OTOH, I can not picture someone of your
gather's stature adopting someone else's hashkafah wholesale, with no
personalization.

Therefore, without a source in RSRH, I'm compelled to assume you're
really describing RNB's TiDE, not RSRH's.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
micha at aishdas.org        Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
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