[Avodah] Re : TuM discussion on Areivim

[david guttmann]

In a thread on Areivim discussing TuM and TIDE 
R.Noam Stadlan said:

"... Without the laws of nature and by definition the science that is
necessary to explicate, understand, and apply those laws) we would not know
that the apple that fell down off the tree yesterday will still fall down
off the tree today, and tomorrow, etc.  There would not be any dependable
consistency in the world. 

 There is no inconsistency in believing in evolution to some extent and also
in Orthodox Jewish dogma.  T'uM means believing that there is intrinsic
value to science, art, literature, and many other fields of human endeavor.
That understanding the laws of nature is a way to understand HKBH, because
He created those laws.  T'uM mean believing that Torah and nature are all
part of what Hashem created, and there don't have to be inconsistencies or
conflicts.  We may look at nature differently than Chachmei haTalmud, but if
they had modern science they also would look at nature differently than they
recorded in Shas.  Rn. Katz is finding conflicts where T'uM does not find
them.  This is not a 'science first' approach.  It is a belief that they do
not conflict, and if they seem to conflict, it is because we don't know
enough to realize they don't.  It doesn't mean that we throw out the
science, or throw out the belief.  We can wait for more information.  As
they say, no one ever died from a kasha.

The Rambam in Hilchot Deot(second perek I think) discusses how to achieve
belief in God, and he begins not by recommending Talmud Torah, but by
looking at the world.  He could be thought of as a T'uM kind of person.  He
studied science, astronomy, philosophy, and tried to apply what he knew of
nature.  He realized there was value in all of that, to the point he
incorporated it in his approach to Yiddishkeit. (Obviously Aristotle and
Moslem philosophers are prominent influences.  Platonic astronomy figures
prominently in hilchot deot as well-discussions of spheres, etc)..."


It is in Yesodei Hatorah 2 not De'ot that Rambam tells us how to get to
Yediat Hashem.

This is one of the clearest and best statements I have seen in the longest
time about Yiddishkeit - true yddishkeit. I wish people would drop these
labels MO etc... There are those who seek to serve HKBH ";Bechol levavchem
..."; and those who are not interested in more than following society as
Mitzvat Anashim Melumada. Whet is referred to as TuM, TIDE and other such
derachim are different approaches in that search for HKBH and as people are
different so are their approaches to these matters. Rachmana Liba Ba'I and
all are proper ways to Avodat Hashem and correct if done betmimut. 

The problem in our society is not which approach to use, it should be a
personal choice, Chanoch Lan'ar al pi darko, but the attitude and lack of
seriousness and commitment to Avodat Hashem which is synonmous with the
search for Yediat Hashem and Vehalachta Bidrachav. The problem is extant in
every segment, group and sect - unfortunately. How to change that attitude
should be the concern of our leaders and not which approach is correct. They
all are if their goal is to arrive at Yediat Hashem (in whatever form and
concept the different Rishonim had for it).

I believe R. Noam's statement should be circulated as widely as possible and
belongs on Avodah too! . Yeyashar Kochacho 

David Guttmann
 
If you agree that Believing is Knowing, join me in the search for Knowledge
at http://yediah.blogspot.com/ 
 
Ve'izen vechiker (Kohelet 12:9) subscribe to Hakirah at www.hakirah.org 

David Guttmann
David Guttmann
 
If you agree that Believing is Knowing, join me in the search for Knowledge
at http://yediah.blogspot.com/ 
 
Ve'izen vechiker (Kohelet 12:9) subscribe to Hakirah at www.hakirah.org