[Avodah] Dancing on Shabbos

[Richard Wolpoe]

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 6:13 AM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:44:42AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> : >  Please see the article "Clapping and Dancing on Shabbos" at
> : > http://www.cckollel.org/html/parsha/vayikra/shemini5763.html
> : > The author, Rabbi Weinrib, learns full time in the [Chicago Community]
> : > Kollel.
>
> : BUT
> : I heard a Rabbi who is a Phd explain this w/o all of the frumkeit
> : implications
> : In places like Spain dances used to fabricate home-made castinets whilst
> : dancing, it was  the WAY they danced to make a rhythmic sound with a
> : home-made instrument - while in France no one danced with castinest So
> : Tsaofos indeed saw this G'zeira as irrelevant.
>
> As RAWeinrib writes, the notion that dancing here only includes dancing
> to produce a rhythm (with or without castinets) can be traces back to
> the Y-mi. Tosafos not holding like the gemara, and sure enough it fits
> the Y-mi.... Now where did I hear that one before?
>
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>

ein hachinami, maybe I need to re-think this one.

Let me explain my position
Your argumetns had been  frum people do it was to me simply a
rationalization not  valid in the face of Rema saying mutav shheyihyu
shoggegeim.  But if in this case, Tosafos is relying on alterante source
such as Yerushlami instead of on the inapplicabiliyt of tis g'zeria, that
changes everything.

Leme say this, RMF in IM OrachChayim pt. 2 #100 is astounded by Tsoafos. And
he goes on the ttack etc.  RMF even cannot understand HOW it can be that
frum people ignroe this Gmara. But that is OBVIOUS.  They are following
Tosafos!  This is an example where I see RMF as a Talmudic Fundamentalist
over being a Traditionalist.

My issue with relying on Tsoafos here is that AFAIK it was not RATIFIED in
Asheknaz by Rema, et. al. [with exceptiosn suc has Simchs Torah as ber Rav
Hai Ga'on]

And I confess there was a straw man aspect. I  was most cetainly attacking
the idea that O's can over-turn Halachah jsut becauase they do it but if C's
do something similar it must be wrong. That is favoring a society or a
culture over an objective position [like my rabbi is better than your rabbi
ad hominem thinking]

However, if Tsoafos indeed has a Yerushalmi that supports his read in Beitza
36 then I have to reconsider my position in light of new evidence.

But I have kahsa:  SA endorses yerushalmi's heter of clapping with the back
of one's hand but STILL codifies the Mishna of ein mtapchin et. al.
otherwise as is. Which means that the Mehcabeir saw this Yerushlami and was
ONLY keikel with a shinuy.

If Rema had given Tsasfos a more hearty endorsement instead of saying yeish
somchin after saying mutav sheyihyy shoggegin, I would NOT have had a
problem with paskning like this Tosafos.

FWIW, I am going over the Zichru Toras Moshe 3rd time with Kehilas YT [1st
time] and the ZTM  [i.e ba'al Chayei Adam] codified the mehaber AS IS - iow
no dancing period. The Kehillas YT mentions lechavod hatorah as an
exemption.  AIUI this was an evolution from Rav Hai's heter on Simchas Torah
alone.


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe at Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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