<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 6:13 AM, Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:44:42AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:<br>
: > Please see the article "Clapping and Dancing on Shabbos" at<br>
: > <a href="http://www.cckollel.org/html/parsha/vayikra/shemini5763.html" target="_blank">http://www.cckollel.org/html/parsha/vayikra/shemini5763.html</a><br>
: > The author, Rabbi Weinrib, learns full time in the [Chicago Community]<br>
: > Kollel.<br>
<br>
: BUT<br>
: I heard a Rabbi who is a Phd explain this w/o all of the frumkeit<br>
: implications<br>
: In places like Spain dances used to fabricate home-made castinets whilst<br>
: dancing, it was the WAY they danced to make a rhythmic sound with a<br>
: home-made instrument - while in France no one danced with castinest So<br>
: Tsaofos indeed saw this G'zeira as irrelevant.<br>
<br>
As RAWeinrib writes, the notion that dancing here only includes dancing<br>
to produce a rhythm (with or without castinets) can be traces back to<br>
the Y-mi. Tosafos not holding like the gemara, and sure enough it fits<br>
the Y-mi.... Now where did I hear that one before?<br>
<br>
<br><br>
Tir'u baTov!<br>
-Micha<br>
</blockquote></div><br>ein hachinami, maybe I need to re-think this one. <br><br>Let me explain my position<br>Your argumetns had been frum people do it was to me simply a rationalization not valid in the face of Rema saying mutav shheyihyu shoggegeim. But if in this case, Tosafos is relying on alterante source such as Yerushlami instead of on the inapplicabiliyt of tis g'zeria, that changes everything.<br>
<br>Leme say this, RMF in IM OrachChayim pt. 2 #100 is astounded by Tsoafos. And he goes on the ttack etc. RMF even cannot understand HOW it can be that frum people ignroe this Gmara. But that is OBVIOUS. They are following Tosafos! This is an example where I see RMF as a Talmudic Fundamentalist over being a Traditionalist. <br>
<br>My issue with relying on Tsoafos here is that AFAIK it was not RATIFIED in Asheknaz by Rema, et. al. [with exceptiosn suc has Simchs Torah as ber Rav Hai Ga'on]<br><br>And I confess there was a straw man aspect. I was most cetainly attacking the idea that O's can over-turn Halachah jsut becauase they do it but if C's do something similar it must be wrong. That is favoring a society or a culture over an objective position [like my rabbi is better than your rabbi ad hominem thinking]<br>
<br>However, if Tsoafos indeed has a Yerushalmi that supports his read in Beitza 36 then I have to reconsider my position in light of new evidence. <br><br>But I have kahsa: SA endorses yerushalmi's heter of clapping with the back of one's hand but STILL codifies the Mishna of ein mtapchin et. al. otherwise as is. Which means that the Mehcabeir saw this Yerushlami and was ONLY keikel with a shinuy.<br>
<br>If Rema had given Tsasfos a more hearty endorsement instead of saying yeish somchin after saying mutav sheyihyy shoggegin, I would NOT have had a problem with paskning like this Tosafos.<br><br>FWIW, I am going over the Zichru Toras Moshe 3rd time with Kehilas YT [1st time] and the ZTM [i.e ba'al Chayei Adam] codified the mehaber AS IS - iow no dancing period. The Kehillas YT mentions lechavod hatorah as an exemption. AIUI this was an evolution from Rav Hai's heter on Simchas Torah alone. <br>
<br> <br>-- <br>Kol Tuv / Best Regards,<br>RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com<br>see: <a href="http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/">http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/</a>