[Avodah] Bishul achar shelo bederekh bishul

[Micha Berger]

I received the following reply to my post about making a second cup of
Temple of Heaven Gunpowder Tea. (Which, the star-K tells me, doesn't
need a hechsher as THGT is a traditional recipe which no gourmet tea
maker would risk its reputation tampering -- or making on used
equipment. See <http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-thirst-tea.htm>. But
back to the topic at hand...) I mention the kind of tea as I will
write below that the tea leaf does undergo a visible change during
brewing.

Here is the resulting dialogue:

I wrote:
> Does derekh bishul necessary to define bishul or the issur?

His reply:
: My gut reaction is to differentiate between the lav derekh bishul
: and ein bishul a'har bishul. Lacking 'irui keli rishon, the leaves
: merely swam in warm water and coloured it. From your description I
: assume you consider (as per what was baseline pessaq in RMF's opinion)
: that tea is a tavlin, which diesn't "cook" in a non keli rishon.
: Therefore, pouring scalding water on it ('irui keli rishon) should
: be considered different from that, which was done to it by putting
: them into a keli sheni or similar.

To which I wrote:
> But I'm not asking about recooking the water, I'm asking about
> recooking the leaves.

> You raise an interesting question, in that I do not know if making tea
> in nearly boiling yad soledes water is any different than using cold
> water -- other than speed. What is kema'achal ben derusa'i on such a
> tea leaf?

> Also, FWIW, the tea ... comes rolled in little gunpowder-like balls.
> (In addition, the name comes from a slight smoky flavor.) The leaves
> dance in the water as they unfurl. So there is some kind of shinui in
> the leaves -- but again, I do not know if it's from the heat, or even
> if it has meaning lehalakhah (or is just a change of shape).

> However, if tea is tavlin, then the issue wouldn't be derekh bishul
> but bishul itself. And so, I would be forced to agree.

In reply to the last quoted paragraph, he wrote:
: I believe that it is obvious that tea is tavlin [but am aware that -
: le'humra - it isn't always treated in this way; but to be meikil by
: not calling it tavlin?], and also believe that maakhal ben drosai is
: a very difficult shiur to use in such cases. Ignoring experimentally
: assessing this shiur in the case at hand, I believe that if keli
sheni : eino mevashel, then pouring 'irui keli rishon on it will bring
about
: the minimal but nonetheless prohibited amount of bishul.

We both agreed that it would be interesting to hear what the chevrah
thinks, particularly RDE's opinion of how the IM is being read. So,
even though this chaver is reluctant to put his name on halachic
guesswork in public, I got his permission to post on list.

Another thought that just hit me, and wasn't sent off-list to that
chaver. The second cup of tea is more astringent in taste and has 20%
of the caffeine of the first. Again, we do not know if this is
specific to tea made in hot water, but it could mean bishul. But one
can tell real difference in taste between green tea made cold, made at
160deg F or so (which is ideal), or made with boiling water. Even
between tea dropped in the hot water vs the product of irui. A layman
can do it, given the opportunity for a side-by-side taste test.
Perhaps this is enough to claim that the water being yad soledes does
make a measurable change on the leaf?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha at aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter