[Avodah] chumrah of Sefardim

[mkopinsky at gmail.com]

On 5/8/07, Chana Luntz <chana at kolsassoon.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
> > On Friday 04 May 2007 04:01:58 am Eli Turkel wrote:
> > > In past posts people have discussed various kulot of
> > > Sefardim. In his latest halacha yomit ROY paskens that a Sefardi is
> not yotzeh with
> > > sweet chalah for Lechem Mishneh (and its berachah is mezonot).
>
> Of course while this is a chumra for lechem mishna, it could be viewed
> as a kula vis a vis washing and benching (makes it much easier to grab a
> snack of challa).
>
>  He
> > > specifically states that a Sefardi that visits an Ashkenazi for
> > > shabbat meal has to either request chalah without any sugar
> > or else to  bring his own challot.
> > >
> > > I wonder how many edot mizrach actaually do this?
> >
>
> And RKB wrote:
>
> > I do this as much as possible. The sepharadi shuls here are makpid to
> > only serve water challah.
>
> I think there are two aspects to ROY's psak:
>
> A) that if a sephardi is making hamotzei he can only do so on water
> chala;
> B) he cannot be yotzei with an Ashkenazi who is making hamotzei on sweet
> chala.
>
> Even if you hold A) and I think a lot of Sephardim do, that does not
> necessarily mean that you hold B).  If you hold, as my husband (and his
> Rav) does that if one is invited out the correct procedure is to be
> yotzei on the kiddush/hamotzei of the baal habayis on the rov am hadras
> melech principle (which he is quite machpid on) and if one takes the
> view that if it is OK for him, one can rely on his standards, then even
> if one holds A) one is not required to bring one's own challos (unless
> one is late).  Note you can have the same problem with kiddush, as ROY
> and others hold that a lot of the traditional Ashkenazi kiddush wines
> (ie the very sweet ones) take a shehakol - but if you follow the rov am
> hadrash melech approach, and the mutar for him, OK for me approach, then
> it works (BTW if you don't hold a mutar for him, OK for me approach,
> then Ashkenazim can have problems eating at a Sephardi home on shabbas,
> if the food has been warmed up by doing chazara which is permitted for
> Sephardim and forbidden according to most Ashkenazim, but I don't know
> anybody who won't permit that).  Of course, there may be issues
> regarding benching - but since you are clearly being koveah seuda, it is
> hard to see any basis on which one would be able to say al hamicha
> rather than bench.
>
You are discussing a few different cases here, and I think it is
worthwhile to discuss each of these issues individually, as the issues are
not identical.  I don't think there is any blanket rule of "good for you,
good for me". (Except perhaps for hechsherim :-), v'hameivin yavin.)

1) Chazara- in most (all?) cases, chazara, especially if done by another
person, does not make food assur to eat. (ie, even w/o the factor of
"muttar for them" to do, the food is probably not assur for you to eat.)
When it was actually muttar for them to reheat the food based on their
poskim, there is even more leniency, since the problem eating food
cooked/reheated on shabbos is based on the fact that it was done b'issur,
and if they were permitted, this factor doesn't exist.

2) Kiddush - Note that to be yotzei kiddush, there is NO need for anyone
but the mevareich to drink.  Kiddush does, however, need to be made on
what is halachically called wine.  I believe that the requirements for
wine for kiddush are more stringent than those for it to be hagafen.  For
example, according to Ashkenazi psak (correct when/if I err), a drink of
40% grape juice and 60% pear/apple juice is hagafen, but is not good for
kiddush or havdalah.  I think ROY requires 5/6 wine to be good for
kiddush.  I don't know to what extend the "good for you, good for me" rule
would apply re: being yotzei kiddush.  In terms of being yotzei the
hagafen and being allowed to drink a shehakol drink (soda for ashkenazim,
or even some wines for sefardim), the issues are different.  Even if you
are yotzei kiddush you may need to make a shehakol, just like in shul
Shabbos morning , when I hear the Rav make kiddush and immediately make
mezonos and eat my cookie.

3) Hamotzi-
a) Is B'rov am relevant for hamotzi?  Kiddush is a mitzvah, hamotzi is
not.  In my Yeshiva, they are makpid that only one person makes kiddush
for everyone, but hamotzi is made separately at each table.

b) As mentioned before, it is not clear that you will eat enough for kvias
seudah.  216 grams of bread is quite a lot.  AIUI, the issue is just the
same for hamotzi and birkas hamazon.  (Unless you were planning to be
koveia seudah and later change your mind, or vice versa.)

c) Birchos hanehenin are individual chiyuvim, and I don't see why my host
being yotzei should automatically means that I am yotzei.  If the correct
bracha (for you) on this food is mezonos, why are you yotzei with my
hamotzi?  I don't know of a rule that hamotzi works b'dieved on cakes etc,
the way Shehakol works on anything, and mezonos (acc. to the Gra) works on
all foods.

d) There is also a chiyuv to have a seudah with bread.  This may be easier
to solve than the lechem mishneh issue, since the host very possibly will
have an already cut loaf of hamotzi bread, but it is still an issue.

e) Lechem mishneh- ROY seems to understand that lechem mishneh needs to be
specifically on bread.  I have heard shitas that even two cakes (if you're
koveia seudah on them) work b'dieved.  ROY could be arguing on that and
saying that you need davka lechem, or he could just be assuming that you
won't eat enough sweet chalah for k'vias seudah.

KT,
Michael