[Avodah] Changing Havarah

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Jan 03, 2007 at 07:51:15PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
:> To get the conversation back to the point... The two sounds were different
:> in the Ashkenazi havarah of the period.

: Were they?  When did Ashkenazim begin distinguishing them?

The question is when did Ashkenazim start distinguishing between patach
and segol. Rashi calls the segol a "patach qatan" (Bereishis 41:35). In
this he follows Bavli niqud, which uses the same symbol for patach and
segol. (As I commented in the past, I think this is a data point against
the theory about Ashkenazi halakhah pulling more from EY.)

I am still seeking where Rashi comments on the problem of saying sheim
adnus with a patach.

On Thu, Jan 04, 2007 at 09:10:01PM +0200, David Cohen wrote:
: The Yemenite kamatz sounds much like the Ashkenazi kamatz with which
: we are familiar.  Given the assertion that the current Ashkenazi
: kamatz is a recent development (in relative terms), is this just a
: coincidence, rather than a reflection of a common origin?

Well, if a havarah would evolve a distinction that wasn't there before,
it's more likely to be the product of hypercorrection. Today people
borrow information from the Teimani havarah if they want to lengthen
the dalet in echad (of Shema). I therefore think that if there were a
point at which the Ashkenazi qamatz developed, I think it most likely
it would have been a conscious imitation of someone else's qamatz.
Neither coincidence nor common origin.

Cross fertilization is also possible.

Along similar lines... Is the banana curl long peiah common among some
Ashkenazi qehilos and among some Teimanim argue common origin, conscious
immitation, or cultural cross-fertilization? In this case, I think that
concept of long peios is from common ancestry, but the style is simply
a common solution to the same aesthetic and pragmatic problem.

: Also, I don't recall hearing this before from other Yemenites, but
: there is one person whom I hear lain frequently according to his
: Yemenite tradition, and he pronounces the cholam in a way that
: strongly resembles the Polish "oy."  Could there be anything to this?

R' Seth Mandel reported that some Teimani communities pronounce
the cholam closer to the Litvish /oe/ (which I can attest is his own
pronunciation). Perhaps that's what your friend is doing, or some cross
between /oe/ and the /o/ sound he hears from his peers.

On Thu, Jan 04, 2007 at 05:22:02PM -0500, Jonathan Baker wrote:
: From: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>
:> What are the Hebrew words you're translating as "a higher sound"
:> and "a lower sound".  I very much suspect you're misunderstanding them.

: I can't read Hebrew characters here, so I don't know what phrase you
: realized he was using.

It's a discussion of mivta, and descirbes "tenu'ah haqamatz gevohah
va'elyhonah". Doesn't that have to mean accoustically higher?

Gut Voch!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
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