[Avodah] zman hadloko erev Shabbos and motzoei Shabbos

[Michael Kopinsky]

On 1/2/07, A & C Walters <acwalters at bluebottle.com> wrote:
> MeMonofshach. If we go sho shovious, it's zicher nogeia in EY. Even if we go
> Sho zmanious it's davka nogeia in EY (and in North America/Western Europe, 
> it should be more than 72 mins. Shver on RMF who says 50 in NYC)

Excuse my ignorance.  What's the difference between "zicher nogeia" and 
"davka nogeia"?

RZS writes:
>  
> >>So it remains theoretically *possible* that the stars visible  before
> 4 millin are all what Chazal called "gedolim", and only the ones  that
> become visible then are "beinonim", and perhaps the "kochavim  ketanim"
> are ones that are too small or distant for us *ever* to see with  the
> naked eye <<

Another point for you New Yorkers (or other big city people) to keep in 
mind, is that stars come out a lot earlier, and a lot more of them are 
visible, outside the city.  As someone who has done a lot of camping, I 
can assure that by  72 minutes after shkia, there are MANY MANY stars out, 
and there's no way you can say that every thing that's out by then is 
medium.