[Avodah] Yetzer HoRa Issues

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, December 5, 2006 10:49 pm, Litke, R Gary wrote:
: There are also ma'amarei chazal (including some in the Zohar, I'm
: told) to the effect that one's neshomo first appears at age 12/13 and/or
: 20. Seems that we are discussing a process, not sudden appearances. When
: the process ripens it becomes fully a 'yetzer tov' or a 'neshomo'; not
: to say there is no yetzer tov whatsoever before that time.

Which is akin to what I said, that the yeitzer hatov can't really exist until
teenage rebellion rears its head. What I prefer about my suggestion is that it
ties back to RYGB's original Pinnochio observation by suggesting that a true
yeitzer hatov, in terms of a constructive internal drive, can not exist until
a child learns that ignoring the cricket (parents, rabbeim and other authority
figures) is a real option.

As for the ability to recognize the little angel and devil arguing out a
decision... This goes back to our still hanging discussion about Adam's
bechirah qodem lacheit. Decision making doesn't require internalized yetzarim.
Besides, most children are at some point taught what the representation means;
how many figure it out without being told?

About imagination vs seichel... This touches on a blog entry I'm in the middle
of writing.

Koach hadimyon as used by Aristotilians goes beyond the colloquial meaning of
the word "imagination". It's the entire ability to reproduce memories as they
were seen. Creating, recreating and modifying scenarios. Yes, when the scene
is new, it requires imagination. But when the scene isn't, we still use koach
hadimyon to reproduce it.

By my own experience, conscious thought happens two ways: dimyon or the
internal monologue we call a "stream of consciousness". I suggest the latter
is what the Targum's "ruach memalela" (Ber 2:7) is about.

For example, there are two ways to think through the question "Does an
elephant have hair?"

The stream of consciousness way would be to realize that elephants are
mammals, all mammals have hair, and so unless elephants are the exception to
the rule, they must have hair. Elephants are well known and discussed animals.
Could they be an exception to the rule and I don't know it? Nah, they must
have hair.

OTOH, through dimyon one can remember elephants one saw, or saw pictures of.
The detail may be blurry, so you may have to manipulate the picture a bit.
Finally, a version which has a tuft of hair at the tail, maybe (if your memory
is good) some downy hair around the eyes and ears, strikes you as the most
familiar.

This point is by the way essential to nevu'ah, which is clothed in dimyon.
Yet, according to the Rambam (as explained .... see previous discussions), it
is still an awareness of a reality.

Aristotle separated imagination (which he used to mean dimyon in general) and
desire as different kochos hanefesh, although he considers it a tool of mind
used only in support of real stream of consciousness thought. But then, the
Greek idea of Logos is both idea and word... And this takes me even further
off topic, so I'll stop my stream of consciouness here.

Given this, I'm missing what's so ra about dimyon. Or are there two meanings
to the word -- one used by Artistotilian rishonim, and one used by everyone
else?

Here's how RYSalanter's Igeres haMussar opens:
> Man is created to be free in his imagination and bound by his intellect. But,
> his unbridled imagination draws him mischievously in the way of his heart's
> desire without fear of the certain future - the time when G-d will examine
> all of his affairs.

RYS seems to be saying that dimyon needs channeling, and lacks the ability to
channel itself; that function must be provided by seichel. Is seichel stream
of conscious thought? Something else / more?

And thus dimyon isn't evil, it's value free. The yeitzer hara would seem from
this description to be *unbridled* dimyon. And he doesn't address seichel's
ability to justify doing wrong.

I need to do much more work on this topic. Your help would be appreciated.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha at aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter