[Avodah] 12 Step Programs

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, October 4, 2006 9:32 pm, R Moshe Yehuda Gluck quoted me and my list of
steps and wrote:
:>> 1.   We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives
:>> had become unmanageable

RMYG:
> Don't we believe that a person can master his actions? And, if it's past
> our nekudas habechirah, then aren't we not responsible?

(More on this in a moment.)

Quote #2:
:>> 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character
:>> 7. Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings

To which I commented:
:> It just smells Xian. Something about turning to a deity for salvation
:> rather than one redeeming oneself. Hakol biydei Shamayim chutz meyir'as
:> Shamayim. We could and should ask for Hashem's help... But to ask Him
:> to do it for us?

RMYG:
: Ayin Maharsha Berachos 10a, s.v. Chatai'im K'siv, who seems to say that
: asking Hashem to return one's self in teshuvah is part of Ha'rotzeh L'Taher
: M'sayin Oso. Ayin sham.

AISI, the Maharsha speaks of assistance -- "mesayin", not of "letting go and
letting G-d".

I find it interesting that I was not bothered by #1, but no.s 6 & 7 hit me the
wrong way, but RYMG responded in the reverse. To return to what RMYG wrote on
#1:
> Don't we believe that a person can master his actions? And, if it's past
> our nekudas habechirah, then aren't we not responsible?

The first question is simply another version what I asked on no.s 6 and 7. Li
nireh it is one thing to say we lost control over something, and saying that
we have no control over anything. After all, being addicted should
definitionally mean that the person's nequdas habechirah is nowhere near the
issue. That's why to me #1 is less problematic.

And why is someone not responsible for something past one's nequdas
habechirah? Isn't he responsible for where the nequdah is? Does a ganef not
have to stop his geneivah, even if it's a kind of theft that he was raised
thinking "doen't really count" and "everyone does it"?

(Although really lehefech: Isn't the point of shemiras hamitzvos to move the
nequdah which in and of itself is the cause of sechar?)

Juming back:
:>> 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact
:>> nature of our wrongs

:> And who would think I would complain about a cheshbon hanefesh or vidui?
:> Vidui to Hashem and ourselves is A-OK. But vidui to another human being is
:> not - on an Avierah not publicly known - ayin OC 607:2 and the MB there.

On Thu, October 5, 2006 6:02 am, R Mike Miller wrote about the same step:
: Then at least limit it to known aveiros. I suppose there are two ways...
: or, more likely IMHO, as a way to make sure the person actually does it,
: and does so seriously....

My thought when I wrote my remark:
Part of asking mechilah is admitting to the person verbally that you realize
you wronged them. The CC and RYSalanter are choleiq about whether this
includes telling them of wrongs that they don't already know about that might
bother them more than their ignorance. But the basic idea of verbally
confessing to the person you wronged isn't under debate, AFAIK. That's what I
thought it meant.

Turns out though, RMM was closer to correct. The following is from "The Big
Book", quoted at <http://www.12step.org/steps/step5.php>:
> How it Works

> This is perhaps difficult, especially discussing our defects with another
> person. We think we have done well enough in admitting these things to
> ourselves. There is doubt about that. In actual practice, we usually find
> a solitary self-appraisal insufficient. Many of us thought it necessary to
> go much further. We will be more reconciled to discussing ourselves with
> another person when we see good reasons why we should do so. The best
> reason first: If we skip this vital step, we may not overcome drinking.
> Time after time newcomers have tried to keep to themselves certain facts
> about their lives. Trying to avoid this humbling experience, they have
> turned to easier methods. Almost invariably they got drunk. Having
> persevered with the rest of the program, they wondered why they fell. We
> think the reason is that they never completed their housecleaning. They
> took inventory all right, but hung on to some of the worst items in stock.
> They only thought they had lost their egoism and fear; they only thought
> they had humbled themselves. But they had not learned enough of humility,
> fearlessness and honesty, in the sense we find it necessary, until they
> told someone else all their life story.
> -A.A. Big Book p.72-73

IOW, o chavrusa o misusa. The Novhardok "bursa" comes to mind. It would also
be part of the function of a Slabodka style va'ad, but ve'adim are chaburah
size, not chavrusa, and also formulate qabbalos to try as a group.

Not, as per RMYG's objection or RMM's first (deleted) possibility, the role of
"father confessor". (Totally off topic, but JPII renamed "confession" to
"reconciliation", and priests are encouraged to take this kind of role when
hearing it. "Reconciliation" is even a plausible translation of teshuvah. But
enough AZ for one post.)

On Fri, October 6, 2006 8:06 am, R Dov Kay wrote:
: Quite aside from the specifics of the individual 12 steps, I think equally
: problematic is the copying of a non-Jewish mode of religious practice....

If there were some actual issur, rather than aggadic problems, obviously
RATwersky knows why it doesn't apply. It is arguably not derekh Emori, as they
aren't tying this to a specific non-Jewish religion.

I too am uncomfortable with the notion of fitting one's hashkafah to an
outside value. This is what I meant by referring to my position on ordaining
women. There too one might work around any halachic issues, but the bottom
line is that one is modifying one's avodas Hashem in significant ways for
reasons other than "it says so in the Torah".

Tir'u beTov, & :-)BB|^^|ii!
-mi

PS: The emoticon above made me wonder: Does anyone else have a minhag to use
round challos until Hoshana Rabba, so that I should have had
:-)@@|^^|ii!   ?

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha at aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv