[Avodah] halachah and history

[Eli Turkel via Avodah]

[Micha:]
> On another note, I uncritically accepted the idea that Yehoyariv was
> banned from getting the kehunah gedolah. Do you have a maqor? Why would
> there even be such a ban, given that the honor was given to Tzadoq's
> descendents. In effect 23 mishmaros were excluded, not just Yehoyariv.
> The Chashmonaim would be out of the running either way.

REMT pointed out to me that the Mishmeret of Yehoyariv was not banned
from serving but rather they were subsumed under a different mishmar.

The Yerushalmi Taanit 4:5 is critical of the mishmeret of Yehoyariv
though its not clear at what point in history. similarly for R E. Hakalir.

I admit that much is speculation that the mishmar of Yehoraiv was not
considered one of the upper echelon and so the Kohen gadol would not
have come from that mishmar.

However if Micha has his speculations I am entitled to mine.

Lisa mentions
> Surely the head of the Sadducee Sanhedrin was called the "Nasi".  But we
> didn't recognize him as such.

This comes back to an old historical debate. It is fairly clear that for
many years the Sanhedrin was run by Sadducees. If so who are the zugot
mentioned in Pirkei avot as Nasi and Av Bet din.

Who established the new moon and hence the chagim during these many years?
Nevertheless I have trouble accepting that there were 2 cohanim gedolim
(like 2 popes or anti-popes).

One of the jobs of the Cohen Gadol is to officiate at Yom Kippur. Which
high priest did that? We know from the gemara that many of the high
priests near the end of the second Temple were not worthy and possibly
were Saduccees. Nevertheless the Pharisees did not set up their own
candidate.

As I understand we have not reached any consensus as to whom is Yochanan
Kohen Gadol that ruled for 80 years, issued takanot and became a Saduccee
at the end of his life.


[Email #2. -micha]

I am currently reading an article by Vered Noam on Chazal and
Josephus. She points out that nowhere in Chazal is the names of the
Maccabee brothers mentioned including Judah. Even in al hanissim we are
told of Mattityahu and his sons. OTOH Josephus never mentions Hillel
and Shamai or even R Yochanan ben Zakkai who was his contemporary.
In fact the story about R Yochanan ben Zakkai telling Vespasian that he
will become Emperor, Josephus attributes to himself.


[Email #3. -micha]

The gemara in Sotah 33a brings a story that Yochanan Kohen Gadol heard a
heavenly voice that the young men who went to Antioch were victorious and
Rashi comments that is refers to priests from the Chashmanoim fighting
the Greeks.

Thus according to Rashi Yochanan Kohen Gadol was a contemporary of
the Chashmanoim. This fits Yochanan the son of Shimon since there were
still battles with the Greeks in his time (in fact his independence was
revoked for 3 years by the Seeucids). It Certainly would not apply to
any high priest before the Macabees eg the various Chonya/Onias. See
also the gemara in Rosh Hashana 18b. Abaye identifies him with Yannai
while Rava states that Yannai and Yochanan are separate people.

Note there is an obvious mistake in the gemara as the Macabbees never
reached Antioch. The correct version should be went against Anitiochus.

As an aside the Artscroll gemara at the end of Yoma I has an appendix
on the Kohanim Gedolim.
They mention that we know of 3 people named Yochanan (Mattiyahu's father ,
son and grandson).
If it is Mattiyahu's father artscroll says he maybe the same person as
Chonyo III (similar to what Lisa has claimed) . Another version connects
him with the son of Matityahu which would disagree with Hashmanoim which
claims he was killed in battle. Several traditional historians identify
him as the grandson of Mattityahu . In fact Josephus relates that JOhn
Hyrcanus became a Sadducee late in life. However, we have no record of
any of these being high priest for 80 years.

Somewhat similar to Micha Yitzchak Isaac HaLevi suggests that usually 2
high priests existed simultaeously one was in the temple and the other
was a religious leader while occasionally the two offices were held by
the same person (this also seems to be pure speculation - for example
it is clear that the chashmanoim kings held both powers

-- 
Eli Turkel