[Avodah] Grape Juice

[Kenneth Miller]

R' Martin Brody wrote:
> ... by FDA law and Kedem's own admission it is cooked at the
> regulatary minimum which I think is 160 degrees.

I will begin by apologizing, and saying something that I should have
written earlier: The above is indeed interesting, and news to me. I
had thought that the grape juice labeled by Kedem as "non-mevushal"
was totally raw. Now I know that it is actually pasteurized, but at a
temperature which even Rav Moshe Feinstein considers insufficient to
qualify as "mevushal". Thank you.

Now I'll review that line in its larger context:
> Kedem's claim that it does produce non-mevushal grape juice
> is a bit lame, because by FDA law and Kedem's own admission
> it is cooked at the regulatary minimum which I think is 160
> degrees. Yes, I'm aware of the mevushal/temperature arguements)
> ... So modern day cooked grape juice for kiddush/havdala/
> weddings/britim/4 cups is a huge heter., and not permitted
> in my very strict house.

If we were writing in Hebrew, this MIGHT not have bothered me, because
in Hebrew the same word "mevushal" can mean different things in varied
contexts. But we're NOT writing in Hebrew. This forum is in English
(or perhaps a Jewish dialect thereof), in which "cooked" and "mevushal"
mean distinctly different things. I tried to point this out by writing:

> "Then perhaps you should call it "cooked" or "pasteurized".
> But to call it "mevushal" is to invoke halachic factors which
> you have not proven. It is similar to saying that carrying a
> piece of paper in the street is not a melacha; it very well
> might not be "work", but "melacha" is something else entirely.

His response:
> Being a bit picky are you? Mevushal is Hebrew for cooked, but
> I'm sure you know that. I'm not trying to prove anything. I
> was posting factual information, that most are unaware of. You
> can do what you like with the information. It would be nice if
> now again somebody said that's interesting and thank you
> instead of coming back at me with pilpulistic or should I
> say pugilistic comments

**I'M** the one being pilpulistic/pugilistic???!!!

No, sir, I disagree. Despite your disclaimer, you most certainly ARE
trying to prove something. Specifically, you are trying to prove to
us that WE should consider ALL of Kedem's grape juice to be mevushal,
even when the label explicitly says that it is not.

Your exact words were:
> Kedem's claim that it does produce non-mevushal grape juice
> is a bit lame, ... So modern day cooked grape juice for
> kiddush/havdala/weddings/britim/4 cups is a huge heter, and
> not permitted in my very strict house.

Your basis for the above, as far as I can tell, is based purely and
deliberately on trying to convince us that if the FDA required grape juice
to be pasteurized, then the juice must count as halachically mevushal,
regardless of what the poskim say.

I have tried to be dan l'kaf zechus, but I cannot imagine why a learned
person such as yourself would so deliberately blur the line between
government requirements and halachic requirements. Please explain
yourself.

As a side point, I'd like to repeat the *first* question I had raised
in that post, which you have not yet responded to:

> What is your source that being the fruit of the grape is
> insufficient, and that the fermentation process needs to
> have begun?

In other words, regardless of how we would define "mevushal", it seems
from your post that "modern day cooked grape juice" is not permitted in
your home for kiddush and other rituals, because the cooking is done
in a manner which prevents the fermentation from even beginning. I am
curious from where you know that this is a halachic requirement.

My understanding is that the chashivus of wine comes simply from it being
the liquid extract of the grape. I get this from Brachos 35b, where
the special brachos for wine and olive oil are discussed together. I
know of no requirements placed on olive extract (other than it not be
harmful, as shown in that gemara), and so I conclude that there are no
requirements for grape extract.

You seem to hold that this is insufficient, and that the mere beginning
of the fermentation is also required (without requiring the fermentation
to be complete). Please show me your sources, I'd love to learn more
about this. Thank you.

Akiva Miller