[Avodah] onshin shelo nin hadin

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 10:45:14AM +0300, Eli Turkel wrote:
: The Ran learns that Kipah is part of dinei melech. So he disagrees with Micha
: about 7 tuvei hair...

I'm not sure how the seifa follows from the reisha. The Ran says that
dinei hamelekh are to provide an ordered society. The 7 tuvei ha'ir
is an institution usable even in the golah for providing an orderly
society. Why wouldn't we assume Ran attributes the melekh's powers as
a superset of the tuvei ha'ir's?

:                     The Ran would claim that 7 tuvei hair can only make
: emergency rules for punishments but cannot introduce new rules
: that are permanent such as kipa

We discussed the Ran's position in the past. I am a daas yachid among the
chevrah who does not understand the Ran to be saying that the melekh's
power is limited to responding to the particular situation in front of us.
Rather, he passes laws to organize society as the need arises. Not just
responding to moments of need.

Also, the power of the melekh is when to use the kippah. Who said it's
the concept of kippah as a general concept?

: As I have said several times before according to many (most?) achronim
: we accept a kinyan that the merchants use but we cant have a rule that
: no kinyan is needed even if that is common practice. ie there are limits
: as to what common practice or 7 tuvei hair can introduce....

Again, I miss the link between the reisha and the seifa. There is nothing
in your first sentence that limits the power of common practice to define
qinyan. And then the question is whether the 7 tuvei ha'ir set choshein
mishpaq practices by fiat or by defining common practice.

I also miss the link between qinyanim, which rely on daas and thus norms
that change how people view an action can change the din, and kippah.

In short, you left me totally lost on this one.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
micha at aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
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