[Avodah] goy vs chiloni

[Eli Turkel]

<<.  The term mavriach ari I am
familiar with as a concept within Baba Kama and the laws of compensation, ie
if somebody chases a lion away from your property , do you have to pay
them or not?,
What does this have to do with hilchos shabbas?  Where is it found used it
in hilchos shabbas?  >>

R Zilberstein says it is obvious that it applies to Shabbos without a source.
He gives the example of a lion prevented someone from entering a building
and someone shoots the lion. He takes it for granted that one can enter
the building and it is not considered as benefiting from a melacha on shabbat.

grama is when one does the melacha but indirectly but one gets direct
benefit from
the melacha. An example would be watering empty soil but where eventually it
will seep and reach and nuture something growing. Mavriach ari means
that one gets
no benefit from what was done. One is simply removing the door that
was preventing
the person from entering. Now he enters into an empty doorway

<< If a chiloni cooked food b'mazid
(or b'shogeg for that matter) on shabbas, are we not getting only indirect
benefit?  After all, the food before was raw, the chiloni took away the
rawness of the food and made it edible, thus effectively scaring away the
lion that is preventing us from eating the food.  Why, according to this,
cannot one eat it on shabbas? >>

Lost me on this one. Cooking the food is what makes it eatable and that
is an active role. Removing rawness is a meanlingless phrase.
In any case one is eating the food that was cooked or had its rawness removed
and so one gets direct benefit

R Zilberstein only brought the CI to assume that it is a deoraysa and strengthen
the question, he was not interested in the details
He takes for granted that pushing the buzzer is prohibted. The question
is whether another Jew can benefit from the melacha

In fact using Chanas case if someone blew out a candle there seems to
be absolutely
no problem for someone else to sleep there even when he couldnt sleep
in the light.
This is exactly mavriach ari. One gets no direct benefit from the
absence of light

<< So where is this said?  >>

R Zilberstein has a set of seforim called Chashukei Chemed - ha-arot
ma-asiyot al seder hamesechtot.

It is coming out according to the daf yomi cycle with Baba Metzia just released.
I am not sure it is on every mesechet.
What I quoted is from mesechet shabbat 18b related to the gemara of
"assurim  bichdei sheyasu"

 > He then asked asked  a question from a MB who disallows using the
contents of a put when a
> Gentile opened the cover on shabbat for a Jew. Why should it be different?

forgot to mention the MB is 518:45
so the question is whether in these cases one would need to wait until
after shabbat a time of  bichdei sheyasu to remove articles from the
pit or else to enter the building.

<<  Is it mutar for the one to ask the other to do
something that they cannot do but the other can (eg putting food directly on
the blech, if a Temani, putting cold soup onto the blech etc etc)?  Is it
mutar to benefit - eg if invited for lunch?  Are you obligated to refuse a
lunch invitation because you know the minhag of the family is to do things
that according to their poskim are mutar, and accepted by all to be mutar,
but are assur to you, eg because you are Sephardi/Ashkenazi - especially
knowing that he will do more of it because you are coming for lunch? >>

I dont know. I assume it depends on whether onr thinks it is halacha or chumra.
A similar case arises one whether someone who keeps Rabbenu Tam can ask
another Jew to do melacha because he holds like the Geonim.
In similar situations the poskim rule that it depends on whether one feels
that the halacha is like Rabbenu Tam to the exclusion of the geonim or
else one holds like abbenu Tam only lechumra


Eli Turkel