[Avodah] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of Gedolei Haposkim

[Samuel Svarc]

> From: avodah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org [mailto:avodah-
> bounces at lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of Micha Berger
> 
> The topic for some reason drifted to Areivim. Not sure why.

Email me off list for the backstory.

> In any case,
> RDBeckerman cited some sources that really brought things more on topic
> for here:
> : The latter two Teshuvos of RMF were written regarding Jews in America in
> : 5740 and 5741, (and Kal Vachomer to EY). RSZA's Shittah was articulated
> : by Rav Neventzahl in 5750 regarding Jews in EY at that time - at that
> time
> : RSZA told Rav Neventzahl that the Chilonim in EY were Mezidim (!).
[Sefer
> : Binah VaDaas pg. 534, letter to the author from Rav Neventzahl].

We are talking 1980's and 90's here. This *is* already a few generations and
would seem to refute your assertion (below).
 
> : It isn't a function of Jewish *education*. RSZA (as I quoted from that
> : footnote in Halichos Shlomo) is explicit that even in the Kibbutzim they
> : are not Tinokos Shenishbu. It is,as RSZA said, a function of *awareness*
> : of Judaism as a religion that places demands on all Jews. They choose to
> : reject those demands. You can then klehr to what extent their rejection
> : is Meizid, Shoggeg or Oness (and there is no Klal in this, it varies by
> : individual) - but there is an awareness.
> 
> : I heard R' Avigdor Miller say that the Jews in NY who hear the rejoicing
> : on Simchas Torah can't be considered Tinokos Shenishbu.

These criteria, IMHO, lie at the crux of the matter. Once they know it
exists their personal clock for culpability starts ticking. 
 
> And the Rambam's precedent WRT second generation Karaim?
> 
> Mamrim 3:3 (Yinglish translation, mine, you can check
> <http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/e303.htm#2> for yourself):
>     When are these things said, by a person who denies TSBP based on
>     his own thought, and the way things appear to him, and he followes
>     his krum reasoning, and the rule of his heart. The person who denied
>     TSBP first, and all those who err following him.
>     BUT -- the children of those who erred and the grandchildren, who
>     were compelled by their parents and born to meenus, and raised them
>     on it, they are like a TSN levein haamim and raised by gentiles
>     according to their religion, that HE IS ONOOS. And ever if he hears
>     afterwards that he is a Jew, and he sees Jews and their religion,
>     he is like an anoos for they raised him on their error. KAKH EILU
>     HA'OCHEZIM BEDARKHEI AVOSEIHEM SHETA'U.
>     ...
> 
> Seems pretty clear that 2nd generation Qaraim or C or R Jews, even ones
> who learn of O, are in the same class as TSN.

The above mentioned poskim either:

- Learn the Rambam differently, or
- Have other Rishonim on which they rely on, because they are explicitly
saying the opposite of how you understood it.
 
> Starting from first principles, the Rambam's position is compelling. How
> does knowing about the existence of something that he were taught by
> his upbringing to be prejudiced against make him not anoos to follow
> them? (One might even argue that since he has much to unlearn, teshuvah
> would be harder for him than someone who encountered Yahadus for the
> first time.)

Because once he knows of its existence he is m'chuyav to find out about its
veracity. So was explained to me by R' Berger from Aish (IIRC - Where I held
the position that BD wouldn't kill a TSN who was m'challel Shabbos and he
disagreed).
 
> All of these quotes by RDB are about a generation or two before this
> one.

Correct, the 80's and 90's are a generation or two ago. It is also quite a
few more generations after the start of the R and C movements. Certainly,
the quotes were explicitly dealing with at least 3rd generation R and C
Jews.

<SNIP>
 
> Also, given Ishei Yisrael pg 138 fn 52 (which I found was referred to
> here and in mail-jewish), where RSZA is quoted as saying that it's better
> to daven in a minyan of shomerei Shabbos, but if you can't, you can rely
> on those who hold that non-O Jews are TSN.

These are points that need addressing, but so do RDB's original quotes;
these conflicting points don't "cancel out", so to speak.
 
> RSZA's position is nuanced; as is RMF's. As RMShinnar pointed out in
> <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n019.shtml#01>, one can't take
> RMF as labeling someone a TSN or not across the board, one must instead
> discuss "TSN WRT hilkhos..."

I actually checked RMShinnar's post and look at what he wrote.

"4) Question to the extent that current non Shomre mitzvot are actually a
TsN, (in most of his language he uses dome leTsN) - Rav Moshe clearly holds
(whcih is the svara of the Radbaz with regard to the Karaim) that those who
have contact with the dati community but reject it (see for example EH 1:82)
do not have the status of a TsN"

I think it's unanimous then. This *is* RMF p'sak: most R and C Jews are
*not* TSN.

KT,
MSS