[Avodah] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of Gedolei Haposkim

[Micha Berger]

The topic for some reason drifted to Areivim. Not sure why. In any case,
RDBeckerman cited some sources that really brought things more on topic
for here:
: The latter two Teshuvos of RMF were written regarding Jews in America in
: 5740 and 5741, (and Kal Vachomer to EY). RSZA's Shittah was articulated
: by Rav Neventzahl in 5750 regarding Jews in EY at that time - at that time
: RSZA told Rav Neventzahl that the Chilonim in EY were Mezidim (!). [Sefer
: Binah VaDaas pg. 534, letter to the author from Rav Neventzahl].

: It isn't a function of Jewish *education*. RSZA (as I quoted from that
: footnote in Halichos Shlomo) is explicit that even in the Kibbutzim they
: are not Tinokos Shenishbu. It is,as RSZA said, a function of *awareness*
: of Judaism as a religion that places demands on all Jews. They choose to
: reject those demands. You can then klehr to what extent their rejection
: is Meizid, Shoggeg or Oness (and there is no Klal in this, it varies by
: individual) - but there is an awareness.

: I heard R' Avigdor Miller say that the Jews in NY who hear the rejoicing
: on Simchas Torah can't be considered Tinokos Shenishbu.


And the Rambam's precedent WRT second generation Karaim?

Mamrim 3:3 (Yinglish translation, mine, you can check
<http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/e303.htm#2> for yourself):
    When are these things said, by a person who denies TSBP based on
    his own thought, and the way things appear to him, and he followes
    his krum reasoning, and the rule of his heart. The person who denied
    TSBP first, and all those who err following him.
    BUT -- the children of those who erred and the grandchildren, who
    were compelled by their parents and born to meenus, and raised them
    on it, they are like a TSN levein haamim and raised by gentiles
    according to their religion, that HE IS ONOOS. And ever if he hears
    afterwards that he is a Jew, and he sees Jews and their religion,
    he is like an anoos for they raised him on their error. KAKH EILU
    HA'OCHEZIM BEDARKHEI AVOSEIHEM SHETA'U.
    ...

Seems pretty clear that 2nd generation Qaraim or C or R Jews, even ones
who learn of O, are in the same class as TSN.

Starting from first principles, the Rambam's position is compelling. How
does knowing about the existence of something that he were taught by
his upbringing to be prejudiced against make him not anoos to follow
them? (One might even argue that since he has much to unlearn, teshuvah
would be harder for him than someone who encountered Yahadus for the
first time.)

All of these quotes by RDB are about a generation or two before this
one. It is arguable that the assumed awareness isn't abstract knowledge.
And while this may seem a stretch, I think it's a far bigger stretch
to take these acharonim as holding differently than the Rambam as well
as being in a manner that doesn't fit the psychological basis of the
gemara's initial statement that a TNS is patur because he an oneis.



Also, given Ishei Yisrael pg 138 fn 52 (which I found was referred to
here and in mail-jewish), where RSZA is quoted as saying that it's better
to daven in a minyan of shomerei Shabbos, but if you can't, you can rely
on those who hold that non-O Jews are TSN.

RSZA's position is nuanced; as is RMF's. As RMShinnar pointed out in
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n019.shtml#01>, one can't take
RMF as labeling someone a TSN or not across the board, one must instead
discuss "TSN WRT hilkhos..."

We discussed all this on Avodah. See
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=T#TINOK%20SHENISHBA>.
I found the vol 15 iteration more helpful.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 33rd day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        4 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
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