[Avodah] Kolech calls for dayanot

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:13:20AM -0500, R Zev Sero wrote:
: Rich, R Joel wrote:
:>> Reb Yitshak's  <celejar at gmail.com <mailto:celejar at gmail.com>>
:>> arguements in favor of Kiblu Alaihu are correct.  But to the best of
:>> my understanding, Kiblu Alaihu would work only in money matters -
:>> not in dinei Nefashot, Geirut or gittin, Halitsa etc..  Is that correct?

:> I would assume so in the "normal" application yet those who see the
:> source of dina dmalchuta as being from the consent of the
:> governed (similar to malchut) would seem to have a much broader
:> scope of "kiblu" and this would better fit with those who explain
:> Devora based on kiblu?

: How is the scope of DdMD broader than the scope of ordinary kiblu?
: "Dina" is by definition a matter of mamonot..

Perhaps when it comes to seeking shalom or having to settle for
arbitration of division of assets, the role of BD is that of a posheir,
and kibelu alaihu would apply. But the get itself is ishus, EhE, with
possible agunah or mamzeirus as an outcome; it's not just a matter
between the baalei din alone.

RSZ and I have had heated disagreements about the scope of DdMD, but
here we are in agreement. (He champions like R' Barukh ben Yitzchaq's
mesorah as to what Tosafos' shitah is; I -- being the product of RYBS
based upbringing -- argue that lehalakhah we're supposed to hold like
the Shach, who in turn is following the Ramban.)

In particular, Reform did away with gittin (1869, and again by Samuel
Atlas of HUC, the friend of the Seridei Eish), claiming that DdMD gave
a civil divorce Jewish import. DdMD, though, isn't a relevent factor
WRT issurin.

The basic problem would again be cultural and largely inhere in how we
set up perception and labeling. To call a mixed-gender pesharah body a
"beis din" would be ziyuf haTorah, no? It's like women's tefillah groups
-- they can't be honestly called minyanim, and those who think they're a
bad move for societal / Torah imekha/umasekha reasons will have similar
qualms against this pesharah body as well.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
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Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter