[Avodah] FW: Worth thinking about

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:35:18PM -0500, Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
:> Jewish law is not a "truth seeking venture". If it were, we would be
:> listening to the bas qol. It's a process for mapping Divine Thought

: There are, of course, other interpretations of why the Hachamim didn't
: follow the Bas Kol in the case of Tanur Shel Achnai.  Tosfos (Yevamos
: 14a s.v. Rabbi Yehoshua), for example, suggest (in their first
: approach) that the veracity of that Bas Kol was dubious, since it only
: occurred in defense of the honor of Rabbi Eliezer.

I refer the chevrah back to my summary of the Encyc
Talmudit on this point, listing 5 different shitos.
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol02/v02n087.shtml#02> The basic issue
is that "eilu va'eilu divrei E-lokim chaim, vehalakhah keBH" is also a
bas qol, and there it seems that we followed the bas qol.

However, as I said when I ran with the Maharal's shitah (AIUI) about
the nature of machloqes, I wasn't describing all possible position,
but the approach that appeals to me.

One can study gemara, rishonim and acharonim, and learn all the various
shitos. Or one can study a guide, and learn what to do lemaaseh. If one
is not a poseiq, the former will rarely overlap with the latter. But
there is a chiyuv to do both.

Similarly in aggadita, one can engage in talmud Torah and learn all
the shitos. Or one can study to build their own worlview. Here, though,
everyone plays personal "poseiq" -- and in fact it much of the process
is preconscious, what strikes me as making sense. So the overlap is
large. Still, when engaging in a "what I believe" discussion, I'm not
likely to raise the other interpretations.

Here I tried to be clear that was what I was doing. The question is,
whether the worldview I constructed is consistent, which brings us to
RZS's post.

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 07:10:02PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: >Jewish law is not a "truth seeking venture". If it were, we would be
: >listening to the bas qol. It's a process for mapping Divine Thought
: >into a human life, mapping divrei E-lokim Chaim to one of many possible
: >halakhah ke-... The problem isn't finding the truth; the truth can't be
: >grasped. It's finding how we can model a path to that truth based on who
: >and where we are as limited imperfect beings.

: >(At least, that's how I understand the Maharal's model of machloqes,
: >and I personally find it compelling.)

: But the Maharal's own take on that story (Be'er Hagulah #4 (4.4 in the
: new 3-volume edition)) is that they ignored the bas qol because it did
: *not* say what the truth was in this particular case...

This is the yeish omerim #1 of R' Nissim Gaon.
...
: But the Maharal seems to say that had the bas qol told them that the
: truth was actually R Eliezer's way they would have to agree with him,
: because the truth is the truth.  "Im haya omer shehadin shelo emes,
: yihyeh ha'omer mi shehu, harei hadin emes."

Alternatively one can say that the Maharal would hold the bas qol
wouldn't speak up to provide a ruling unless it were to say that the
mapping process entirely failed. IOW, in the kind of cases discussed in
Horios.

The general impression from the Maharal is that the Father bows to the
will of the child, which is expressed by acharei rabim. And like many
flesh-and-blood fathers do when giving in to a child, Hashem sinmply said
"You win!" in almost exactly those words.

This makes more sense with my take on his introduction, than insisting
pesaq is a matter of finding truth would.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
micha at aishdas.org        once you get to know them.
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