[Avodah] Free Will vs. Physics

[Yitzhak Grossman]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:59:54 -0400
Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:

...

> Random activity on a quantum level DOES go against a deterministic
> physics. Maybe one can say that it's statistically deterministic -- the
> odds have to be met, but no one outcomes does.

IIUC, although physicists have found convincing evidence that Bell's
inequality doesn't hold, that only rules out *local* hidden variable
theories; there is no proof that a non-local hidden variable
interpretation of quantum theory is impossible, and if such an
interpretation would be correct, then the universe could indeed be
deterministic.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variables_theory

...

> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 05:57:07PM -0400, Yitzhak Grossman wrote:

...

> : I think that you are conflating the concepts of 'algorithmic' and
> : 'deterministic'.  Something can be noncomputable but perfectly
> : deterministic, as Turing showed...
> 
> (Actually Turing didn't. What he showed was that there are problems that
> aren't computable. He didn't prove there was a machine that could solve
> them. Such a machine would be beyond algorithmic, but still deterministic
> -- once we say it exists. But my problem is with determinism and
> randomness, not really algorithm.)

I don't understand your point here; what did I say that Turing showed
that you deny that he did?

...


> Here's the basic dilemma, in hopefully clearer language.
> 
> Say a person is now deciding whether or not to steal a diamond.
> 
> If the person's decision is based entirely on a sum of the history of
> things he experienced and the nature of his personality (both static and
> in its propensities to evolve in various ways), then the soul is
> deterministic. If so, his decision is entirely a product of things
> beyond the person's control, and why should he be blamable for anything?
> 
> If the other element is that it's not fully caused by the outside, then
> is free will simply randmoness? That still means a person can't be the
> subject of blame or guilt.

I agree that there is a profoundly important question here.

...

> Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat