[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:36:56PM +0200, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
: Let me add a few more sources  that  clearly indicate the uneducated 
: masses  bear guilt for sinning...

I fail to see two of them.

: *Igros Moshe (**Orech Chaim 4:91.6): ...
:                                                      Even though they 
: are inadvertent heretics and are like tinok shenishba (captive children 
: amongst non-Jews) because they have been raised that way by their 
: parents and  their surroundings. They therefore aren't punished by 
: Heaven and they aren't punished by being lowered into a pit...
:                                            Nevertheless they are 
: heretics and it is necessary to stay away from them as is stated in 
: Avoda Zara (17a)....

It sounds to me that they are heretics, but bear no guilt. Otherwise,
you're suggesting that RMF holds it's possible for someone to bear guilt
that beis din shel ma'alah doesn't punish for.

: *Binyan Tzion - New (#23): This is a theoretical halachic view which is 
: not meant to be for actual practice??? ...
: Furthermore their children who come after them - who have never known or 
: even heard about the laws of Shabbos - are identical  to the Tzadokim 
: who are not considered heretics even though they profane Shabbos because 
: they are simple imitating the actions of their parents [and not because 
: they are willfully transgressing Shabbos]. Thus they are considered like 
: tinok shenishba...
:         ???It is also possible that even concerning the Tzadokim who do 
: not normally live amongst Jews and therefore don???t know the basic 
: aspects of the religion and are not disrespectful against the rabbis of 
: the generation ??? are also not considered as violating the laws 
: deliberately.??? Many of the sinners  of the present generation are 
: similar to them and are even better than them....
:                                                            Consequently 
: in my humble opinion those who wish to treat the touching of wine by 
: these modern sinners as prohibited stam wine  - they should be blessed. 

This too implies altered halachic status without guilt attached.

: *Yabiya Omer(3:21):...
: Therefore it is certain that after they have been warned and cautioned 
: regarding religious observance they are considered as deliberately 
: transgressing the Torah....

Here he clearly does imply guilt for anyone who got hasra'ah.

I wonder, though, what ROY does with the notion that people neither no
how to give or how to receive tochakhah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
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