[Avodah] manipulating bodily energies

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Jan 16, 2008 at 04:13:27PM -0700, Daniel Israel wrote:
: >That's why I used relative terms. Asking a friend to say tehillim 
: >for a sick person is clearly mutar. Praying to a demigod is not. At 
: >what point does one make the transition to being like a friend and
: >permissable to being like a demigod.

: That is not a good example.  The friend has bechira.  An malach 
: does not, and neither does a niftar.  A "demigod" is either a 
: malach that someone is misidentifying or a non-existant entity, but 
: in either case it is being treated as if it has a bechira that it 
: does not.

I'm stating that there is a spectrum. One end is clearly assur, the
other, not only mutar but commonplace. Now the question is where one
draws the line.

If I were more clear, I think you would have replied that the point
on the line is that between someone with bechirah (eg my friend) and
someone without (eg a mal'akh).

I'm not sure how well that works. First, there is a question whether
meisim have bechirah. If they are lemaalah min hazeman, is bechirah even
a possibility?

Second, according to the Rambam, mal'akhim lack the possibility of
bechirah. According to the Or Sameiach, they have the potential for
bechirah, but as they inhabit olam ha'emes, there are simply no decisions
for them to make; the right choice is always self-evidence.

Qabbalistic sources do ascribe bechirah to mal'akhim. RYGB once suggested
that perhaps this fits the OS -- when outside olam ha'emes on mission,
they lack that clarity.

See also RGS's survey of sources about sinning mal'achim. See
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n015.shtml#02>. As well as the
thread "Makhnisei Rachamim Apologetics" <http://tinyurl.com/jzvqy>.

But your criterion (only if the one being petitioned has bechira) would
mean that hamon am who say "Borkhuni leshalom" and "Machnisei Rachamim"
either ascribe bechirah to mal'akhim or don't agree with your position.

(My own difficulty with both tefilos is the need to be so clear on these
issues in order to avoid an issur chamur that is yeihareig ve'al ya'avor.
It scares me.)


Personally, I would make the question of the 5th ikkar to be more about
whether one is asking for assistance getting Hashem's help, or whether one
is asking for assistance /instead/ of it. That a middleman is defined as
someone you aproach instead of approaching G-d directly, not in addition.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
micha at aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
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