[Avodah] manipulating bodily energies

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, January 15, 2008 7:18 pm, R Zev Sero wrote:
:> Where I would see more clear problems arising is if someone asks the
:> meis to do something other than ask HQBH. To do it himself. Or
:> "tzadiq gozeir ve'E-lokim meqayeim". Turning the meis or mal'akh into
:> a force, a source of yeshuah, in and of itself.
:
: How is that different?  It's still HQBH who is mekayem.  All the
: tzadik does is "gozer"....

That's why I used relative terms. Asking a friend to say tehillim for
a sick person is clearly mutar. Praying to a demigod is not. At what
point does one make the transition to being like a friend and
permissable to being like a demigod.

Applying "tzadiq gozeir" is one step on the line closer to the demigod
than asking for their baqashos from Hashem.

I am not expressing a position where the spectrum is split into issur
vs heter, just defining the spectrum. I did mention the Gra's
position, which I follow in my own practice -- but also acknowledged
that it's a minority opinion that runs counter to common pesaq. It
just is most intuitive to me, so until I can say Shalom Aleikhem and
be sure I'm not misunderstanding it in a means that is AZ, I will
avoid it. Qua chumrah, not din. As I wrote, I left the din question
open.

...
: Saying "the tzadik helped me" is shorthand for "the tzadik through
: his brachah induced Hashem to help me"....

But one gives credit to the tzadiq, the other to the Borei. As I wrote
in the earlier post "Turning the meis or mal'akh into a force, a
source
of yeshuah, in and of itself."

Besides, trying to manipulate the Borei through tzadiq gozeir is so
much like curing through lachash... This might be a second issue, or a
critical bit of where asking for help crosses the line into violating
the 5th ikkar (not to worship demigods or avodas Hashem via
intermediaries).

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha at aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv