[Avodah] schechtworthy

[Chana Luntz]

RMB writes:

> I am not sure how peritzas geder can be described as 
> chitzoniyus.

Well I think that this is one of the situations where the use of the
word may have morphed.  That is why I wanted a specific halachic
citation.

Consider this though: There has been some discussion on Areivim recently
and elsewhere about the fear that people appear to have, in the Orthodox
community, to do things like sign their names to letters to the editor,
due to the "PC Orthodox Police".  The particular fear appears to be
linked to having unmarried children - who it seems, will find themselves
unable to marry within the community should their position be
jeopardized, but certainly those who parnassa depends on community
functions are even more at risk.

We also are hearing increasingly about questions being posed in relation
to shidduchim such as the use of white (or non white) tableclothes on
shabbas, with unacceptable answers meaning one is rejected from the
acceptable shidduch pool.

Now, the halachic terminology that is used to describe people who do
such things as use white (or non white) tablecloths, not to mention
express opinions not necessarily in accordance with the norm,is poretz
geder.  Because, as you say:

>It's saying that this person refuses to follow 
> the pesaqim of his community.

That begs the question, who is his community and what are its pesaquim -
and how far does the concept of poretz geder extend  - which was the
question I was asking.  The specific example that RZS gave was of
somebody who trimmed his beard in a community where people didn't - this
potentially constituting poretz geder.  Why is trimming the beard any
different from white tableclothes or any of the other things that I
believe most people on this list regard as narrishkeit in shidduch
terms?  How far down this line do you go?  Where *is* the geder?  And it
is in the case of a shochet that the matter would seem to cut most
acutely, given that his parnasa is from the community, but unlike a Rav,
he does not even in theory set the halachic standards - which is why it
is the most logical place halachically to have the discussion

> And given that the issue of 
> peritzus on TV can be a matter of pesaq, I would think that 
> defying the local norm is rather penimi.

Well yes and no, because even the question of psak becomes increasingly
blurred.  So how far are you prepared to take this thinking?  Do you
agree with the kinds of questions that are apparently increasingly
common in shidduch situations?  If not why not? Those asking them would
no doubt insist they are trying to determine whether the family into
which they might marry is poretz geder.  

Or how about this one which runs closer to the question of psak - are
you prepared to go to a "Big Event" type concert?  If you had bought a
ticket to the Big Event concert, would you have refused to go following
the kol koreh if the organisers/performers had not cancelled the
concert?  What if your Rav was not one of the ones who signed the kol
koreh?  Are you poretz geder if you might still have be willing to go if
the organisers had not cancelled it?  Does this destroy your chezkas
kashrus?  Should you children be unmarriable within the community?
Should you lose your job as a shochet (or be unemployable as one?
 
> As for the connection to shechitah, my understanding is that 
> a poretz geder has no chezqas kashrus.

Where do you get your understanding from (ie sources please)? - and what
forms of poretz geder do you mean - an absence of white (or coloured)
tablecloths; an unwillingness to obey a kol koreh of the nature of that
regarding the Big Event?  A questioning eg of the kol koreh of the
nature of the Big Event? Or something else?  

 Now I admit that 
> that's different than his not being kasher, but it does make 
> it incredibly hard for anyone but the Bochein Kelayos vaLeiv 
> to determine.

Yes indeed it is different from his not being kasher.  And while I am
aware of a fair bit of discussion about the nature of chezkas kashrus -
including the Aruch Hashulchan's famous description of somebody having a
chezkas kashrus if he, inter alia, washes his hands for bread and
instructs his children to do likewise - I am not, but this may be my
ignorance, aware of a similar discussion regarding the boundaries of the
concept of poretz geder - all I am aware of is it being brought in the
context of particular halachos - such as that of not fasting on the
minor fast days, where it is specifically brought in the rishonim and
Shulchan Aruch that anybody who does not follow the accepted minhag
today which is to fast on such days is poretz geder.  One can understand
the need for this, because there is a readily apparent and fairly
logical argument based on the situations in which the gemora says that
one does and does not fast on minor fast days that perhaps that
requirement does not apply today - so the need to reinforce the
historically accepted position can be readily understood.

But how far does such a concept extend and how far do you believe such a
concept should extend beyond those cases brought specifically in the
Shulchan Aruch?  That was my question - particularly in light of the way
the concept is being used today.


> SheTir'u baTov!
> -micha

Regards

Chana