[Avodah] R' Angel & Geirus Redux

[Michael Makovi]

>  > Not so explicitly, no, but I've always seen R and C characterized as
>  > tinokim she'nishbu, and never did I see the rabbis distinguished from
>  > the lay. Now, b'vadai, sometimes you have to take practical measures
>  > against the rabbis themselves because of the harm they'll do. But it's
>  > never against them for their own sake - if an R/C rabbi sat and did
>  > nothing, we'd do nothing to him, and if he does "kiruv", we'll stop
>  > his efforts but only because of the efforts, not because of him
>  > himself. This is all AFAIK.
>  > Mikha'el Makovi

>  We obviously travel in different circles.
>
>  Regarding the issue of tinok shenishba - there is much material
>  available in the archives I wrote the following
>
>  The above concern seems reflected in the Igros Moshe. O.H V 28.22  page 103
>
>  Daniel Eidensohn

Gevalt! Apparently we do travel in different circles - such words I
have never seen in my life!

So Reb Moshe says they are kofrim, and one might say that they are
b'shogeg, but Reb Moshe would retort that since they know shomrei
Torah u'Mitzvot, they ought to know the Torah is true.

Such words I find absolutely astounding. With all respect to Reb
Moshe, I honestly cannot understand these words (if I didn't have
respect for Reb Moshe, believe you me, I'd use MUCH stronger terms).
Reb Moshe honestly expects these people to realize that Torah is true
just because there are are rational and intelligent benei Torah? And
there aren't rational and intelligent gentiles? If someone says there
is wisdom amongst the nations... If I have been raised in a non-Torah
environment, why should I have any greater predisposition to Torah
than the Christian Bible or the Koran or Kant or the Bhagavad Gita? Of
course they see rational and intelligent benei Torah! But they have no
reason to think more highly of them and their religion than they do of
all the rational and intelligent non-benei Torah!

Now, obviously, I'd say that since Torah is our "wisdom and
discernment in the eyes of the nations", it must be that anyone who
really delves into the Torah will realize its greatness - but this is
something that requires investigation and an open-mind, and we cannot
presume that it is so simple for one to be won over.

Moreover, given that the nations are to learn from us the 7 and not
the 613, it means that they are to inspired by our ethical business
practices, not our abstaining from lighting fires on Shabbat - and  I
see no reason why a Jew who has been raised irreligious should be
expected to have greater insight than a gentile.

To characterize these people as anything but shogeg astounds me from a
rational intellectual standpoint. I am also astounded because I have
never seen such words, and never did I know they existed - we do
indeed travel in different circles. I am currently in Rav Kook circles
(a friend of mine in yeshiva was greatly troubled by Rav Hirsch's
austritt, because he thought it meant that R/C Jews as *individuals*
were ostracized, rather than austritt being the
communal/organizational measure that it was), and even before that, I
was in MO circles, where evidently the attitude is very different -
every MO-type rabbi I have ever heard, AFAIK, holds the same view on
today's R/C as I do. I also recall a story of Nechama Leibowitz being
told by Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach that she should definitely give
directions to drivers on Shabbats, so that they could get to their
destinations sooner, and minimize the chillul Shabbat - Reb Moshe
would apparently disagree with this, as far as I can tell. It is
interesting that apparently, Reb Shlomo Zalman had some sort of close
relationship with Rav Kook -
http://seforim.blogspot.com/2007/10/chaim-rapoport-from-maadanei-eretz-to.html

Rabbi Yom Tov Schwarz in his Einaim Lirot (I later find out his
relationship with Reb Moshe) devotes a lengthy chapter to this topic,
declaring profusely that todays' Reform Jews are tinokim she'nishbu -
he brings Chazal that many Tzadukim were only following mesorah, and a
Shulchan Aruch that an eruv with a Karaite may be kosher because he
isn't a true kofer, and many others. In any case, when I read this, I
thought it was very interesting, but I wondered, "Where's the
chiddush? Who on earth would disagree with any of this?" Now I know...

So how many people in the field actually hold like Reb Moshe on this?

Mikha'el Makovi