[Avodah] O attend R wedding = kosher eidim?

[Elazar M. Teitz]

<According to rov rishonim, there is no problem as the eidei qiyum were picked, and presumably they weren't the O guests.>

     I don't think R weddings have designated witnesses, certainly not "to the exclusion of all others."

<According to the baalei Tosafos, the problem is bigger, but avoidable
-- make sure BD never only ask the O guests to testify without a pisul
le'eidus as well.>

(snip)
     
<WRT the agunah problem, why not interview two brothers and thereby
invalidate the kat eidim without impossibly difficult grilling?>

     I believe there is a basic misunderstanding underlying these two comments.  Eidei Kiddushin serve two functions: they are eidi rai'ah, who can attest that an act of kiddushin took place (or at least, that the mechanics of kiddushin were performed); but the are also eidei kiyum: it is their presence which makes the act of a man's putting a ring on a woman's finger and saying "harei at" become an act of kiddushin.  If two brothers were to testify in court that they saw the act, or if two kosher eidim together with one who wasn't testified, BD then lacks proof that kiddushin occurred -- but it doesn't mean that it didn't occur.  It's just that the BD before whom they testified has not received kosher evidence to that effect.  So long as two kosher witnesses saw the act, however, whether or not they (or any one else) ever tsetifies about it in BD, the couple is still married.

     According to the opinion, though, that a seeing witnesses, not only a testifying witness, makes everyone's seeing pasul, (what has been referred to in this conversation as the shittah of Tosafos), then there are no _eidei kiyum_ as a result of the presence of the pasul, and hence no kiddushin.     

EMT 
_____________________________________________________________
Security Camera for your small business. Click Now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3mYHqVUWqL9FiCls5TBIs9BnPnZKdYabSQzrY08drOVrb0fA/