[Avodah] Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell

[hankman]

From: "Dr. Josh Backon" <backon at vms.huji.ac.il>
To: "hankman" <salman at videotron.ca>; <avodah at aishdas.org>
....
Subject: Re: Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell


> At 03:15 AM 8/31/2006 -0400, hankman wrote:
> >Thank you for your response, but from the nature of your response I
gather
> >that this was quite a stretch and that you were grasping at straws in
order
> >to interpret divrei chazal. I say this because instead of simply quoting
any
> >standard medical text on diseases and their description, you chose to
search
> >out some far flung research journals (i.e., not things that are well
known
>
>
DR. JB wrote:
> You asked for the **normal** situation (pregnant woman). I didn't discuss
the

CM responds:
No, if you will reread my post (as well has the Subject heading above) it is
clear that I was asking about the case of the Mishna which clearly calls for
some circumstance that is or leads to some risk to life.

Dr. JB wrote:
> pathophysiology of hyperosmia [uncinate gyrus epilepsy, migraine,
> adrenocortical insufficiency, very rare cases of drug reaction).

CM responds:
I will have to get out my medical dictionary ... :-)
The definition I found on the net for uncinate epilepsy is: "A form of
psychomotor epilepsy initiated by a dreamy state and by hallucinations of
smell and taste, usually caused by a medial temporal lesion. Also called
uncinate fit." Could be a fit here, but ... does that mean in our sugia that
there is no actual smell and the woman halucinates it, which warns us of the
oncomming epiletic fit? That would be a (possible but) novel peshat in the
sugia. Does eating the food aleviate the epilepsy (my guess is that not
since it is caused by some medial temporal lesion). If not, then it would
not fit in our sugia.

How would migraine fit in here? Is it brought on by smell? Can there be a
chashash pikuach nefesh? Is the symptom alleviated by eating?

I could not figure your intent wrt adrenocortical insufficiency, could you
please explain the connection? (preferably in lay language).


>
Dr. JB wrote:
>
> Excuse me ? I provided the LATEST research on the subject [references
below]
> That very recent research has debunked the theory that pregnant women are
more
> sensitive to odors has to be taken into consideration by poskim. And I
showed
> that the latest research on the fetus being sensitive to odors shows that
> Rashi
> was 101% correct (950 years ago).
>
CM responds:
The cites are not directly on point showing a medical condition that fits
our sugia. Acondition brought on by smell, has a risk to life and can be
alleviated by eating.
What your cites (so far as I can tell, as you did not point this out) do not
show was that their was some possibility of risk to life shown in any of
these articles or that the condition is helped by eating.

>
> >neonates and the effect on their sense of smell, but we are discussing
> >humans in utero. Furthermore, the research you cite (based on their
titles,
> >I have not read them, please correct me if I am wrong in this assumption
> >from the titles) does not refer to any danger to life, immediate or
> >otherwise, based on disregarding the desire brought on by the smell.
> >
>
Dr. JB continues:
>
> There is a neuropsychiatric component to hyperosmia and I mentioned this.
> But you have it farblondjet: it's not that the odor causes the
uncontrollable
> desire to eat; it's the histrionic personality of other medical condition
that
> sensitizes the organism to the odor.
>

CM responds:
Now we are cooking, (I can smell it now :-) but can this sensitization to
the odor be the cause of any risk to life? This is the heart of the issue
and what I am looking for. See meforshim on SA OH 617 & 618 from whence it
is clear the the chashash of sakanot nefoshos is central here.

Dr. JB continues:
>
> Could that be considered "life threatening" ? The gemara never hints at
this.
> Indeed, anything "life threatening" would engender the concept of "pikuach
> nefesh"
> so your question is meaningless.

CM responds:   Huh? That's what this whole sugia is all about. I do not get
what you are saying!

Dr JB continues:
>It could, however, be in the category of
> "ahnus"

CM responds:
I am not as well versed as you, could you please cite where I can look this
up?

> where the person has an uncontrollable desire brought about by other
> factors.
>
>
>
>
CM responded:
> >Also, Bulimia Nervosa is a condition where at best, the time for risk to
> >life is measured in years or decades, not the same day.
>
>
Dr JB respnded:
> You're aqain bringing in a strawman argument since NO ONE refers to or
> discusses
> any immediate risk let alone pikuach nefesh.
>
CM responds:
Again, my understanding is that the chashash pikuach nefesh underlies this
entire sugia! Not at all a strawman. You mentioned Bulimia in your post.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster