[Avodah] [Areivim] Chicken Scandal

[Chana Luntz]

>From Areivim but sent to Avodah - please redirect if there is a reason
you posted this on Areivim:

RMB wrote:

> While cleaning up, I tried explaining how I saw it. Chezqas 
> kashrus isn't just a rule of thumb by which we are allowed to 
> live. It allows us to trust other Jews. It's a means to 
> unity. If we hadn't trusted people, enabling them to abuse 
> that trust, we would have been spiritually flawed on a pretty 
> fundamental level.
> 
> The fact that we are told to rely on the eid echad would seem 
> to imply that tarfus is the lesser of the two problems.
> 

I think one of the key things though is to learn the sugyas that relate
to chezkas kashrus.

In Yore Deah siman 119 si'if 1 the Mechaber explain the din in respect
of somebody who is suspected of eating treif:

"One who is suspected of eating things which are forbidden whether he is
suspected on an issur torah or suspected on an issur d'rabbanan one does
not rely on him, and if one is a guest by him he should not eat from him
of things on which he is suspected."

The key portion for our purposes, however, is the Rema there:

"There are those who say [Yesh omrim] that it isn't just one who is
suspected but even one that one does not know [she'ain mechirin oto]
that he is machzik b'kashrus it is forbidden to *buy* [emphasis mine]
from him wine or other things that there is in them a suspicion of issur
but in any event if he is a guest by him he may eat from him."


>From this Rema it is easy to see a distinction being drawn between what
one is given eg as a guest and buying.  It is imperative that, on an
individual level, we trust our neighbours, as you have explained above,
and that therefore chezkas kashrus has to trump and there is no question
about that. When it comes to commercial arrangements, however, there are
those who say that it is legitimate to be more wary - and it is upon
this basis and for this reason that we have put in place our hashgacha
systems, ie why we do not fully rely on the chezkas kashrus of a seller
in the way we would and should do when eating of food that he gives to
us.  That admittedly does appear to leave us in the odd situation that
we may end up eating at other people's houses from hashgachas that one
would not rely on for one's own house, but IMHO that is what, in order
to maintain the trust that you describe, the halachic system requires.

However, note that a) this yesh omrim is apparently based on the
position of the Rambam, and b) the one area where there appears to be a
significant level of agreement with the yesh omrim is in relation to
meat.  I quote the Shach there in si'if katan 1:

"chashud l'echol:  derive from this that this that we do not rely on him
is davka if he is known to be suspected but with a stam yisroel we rely
upon him even in respect of an issur d'orisa like the Tur writes - about
what are we speaking with one who is suspected, but b'stam kol adam hu
b'chezkas kasher l'echol imo and so is the opinion of the Ra'avid and
Rashi and there is support for this from the Yerushalmi ... And not like
the opinion of the Rambam (which is the yesh omrim brought by the Rav)
that we need davka that we know that he is muchzak b'kashrus and the
minhag is not like the opinion of the Rambam but rather that we consider
every person b'chezkas kashrus".

But the Shach then brings that there appears to be a contradiction
between this position and the position brought by the mechaber in siman
1 of Yoreh Deah, where he appears to posken like the Rambam that you
need a shochet ne'eman and that in the Beis Yosef there he writes that
it is not like the opinion of the Mordechai that it is not necessary
because stam yisroel is b'chezkas kashrus and similarly he writes that
we do not buy meat from any butcher who shechts for himself and sells
unless he is established in kashrus like the Rambam.  And the Shach
further notes that this is also a kasha on the Tur who similarly brings
the Rambam in relation to this.  So to resolve this contradiction the
Shach explains that a butcher shochet is different "d'shechicha tuva" [I
am not 100% sure what he means by this so hesitate to translate it] and
also the laws of shechita are numerous and it is easy to have a
situation of shehiya or drusa or other of the instances that possel
shechita and hence if he is not muchzak b'kashrus, ossur.

That is, the general rule regarding relying on stam chezkas kashrus does
not apply to a butcher who shechts and then sells.  Of course our case
here is about a butcher who did not himself shecht.  But at least some
of the reasons that it is logical to view meat differently, and to
follow the Rambam with regard to the sale of meat might well apply to
the whole meat process.  Because nowhere is the divergence in price
between a kosher and non kosher product so dramatic as with meat, and
the arbitrage opportunity for the unscrupulous is obvious.  This does
not mean that one upsets the chezkas kashrus reliance if one is a guest
at another's table or simcha even in relation to meat products (see the
ROY teshuva I quoted on previous posts of this), but it does mean that
it is reasonable to expect and demand that before one buys a good
hechsher takes a much greater role when dealing with meat products than
would seem to be necessary in other circumstances.

That is one of the reasons why, inter alia, I am concerned that people
tend to get hung up on the need for "specialised expertise in food
technology (such as the complex field of flavouring)" where the risks
are generally, at most, d'rabbanan and where there are usually opinions
(even if minority ones) that in fact the matter is mutar l'chatchila.
Because arguably this has a tendency to divert attention from those
problems of kashrus that, since time immemorial, have caused the
violation by the rabbim of issurei d'orisa.  That arguably the whole
hashgacha system is in fact following the Rambam, which according to the
Shach is a minority opinion except in relation to meat and therefore we
ought reasonably to expect that in relation to meat products the
standards would and should be higher than in relation to any other
product.  Note that also, it is explicit from the gemora that in
relation to a shochet's knives we do not rely on eid echad ne'eman
b'issurin, but have them checked by a chacham, even though we do rely on
this principle for other issurei d'orisa (it being learnt from the issur
d'orisa of nida).  That already should signal that meat and its
production falls into a different category.


> -mi

Shabbat Shalom

Chana